EPA, WITH LONG STANDING AND CLEARLY ESTABLISHED TIES TO STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, AND OVER 10 YEARS OF RESOURCE RECOVERY EXPERIENCE, IS THE LOGICAL FOCAL POINT OF THE FEDERAL RESOURCE RECOVERY EFFORT. EPA'S PROGRAM HAS BEEN DEVELOPED WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT TWO OTHER AGENCIES, THE DEPARTMENTS OF ENERGY AND COMMERCE, ALSO HAVE SIGNIFICANT RESPONSIBILITIES.

THE IMPORTANT ROLE OF CONTINUED TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATION IS NOW BEING HANDLED PRIMARILY BY THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY. THIS INCLUDES FULL SCALE COMMERCIAL PROTOTYPES WHERE RISKS MAY DICTATE FEDERAL FINANCIAL SUPPORT. THE ROLE OF MARKET ANALYSIS AND DEVELOPMENT, PARTICULARLY FOR RECOVERED MATERIALS, NOW RESIDES PRIMARILY WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, ALTHOUGH EPA MAINTAINS MARKET EXPERTISE FOR SUPPORT OF TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE. THESE THREE PROGRAMS ADDRESS THE KEY FACTORS WHICH WILL INFLUENCE THE FUTURE OF RESOURCE RECOVERY IN THIS COUNTRY.

EPA IS CURRENTLY TAKING THE LEAD IN COORDINATING THOSE ACTIVITIES INTO A WELL INTEGRATED FEDERAL PROGRAM. INTER-AGENCY AGREEMENTS WITH BOTH AGENCIES HAVE BEEN SIGNED. EPA IS IN THE PROCESS OF ORGANIZING AN INTERAGENCY COMMITTEE WHICH WILL INCLUDE PRINCIPALLY THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE AND THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY AND ALSO OTHER DEPARTMENTS AND AGENCIES WITH AN INTEREST IN RESOURCE RECOVERY. THIS COMMITTEE WILL HAVE AS A PRIMARY TASK THE DEVELOPMENT OF A WELL INTEGRATED PLAN FOR THE COORDINATED IMPLEMENTATION OF ALL FEDERAL RESOURCE RECOVERY PROGRAMS.

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MR. MADIGAN. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO SUGGEST THAT THERE BE SOME INTERAGENCY ACTIVITY WITHIN THE EPA SO THAT YOU WILL BE BETTER EQUIPPED TO MAKE A JUDGMENT AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE 1977 CLEAN AIR ACT AMENDMENTS ARE GOING TO HAVE THE FULL POTENTIAL OF SHUTTING THIS TECHNOLOGY DOWN BEFORE IT REALLY GETS OFF THE GROUND.

MR. PLEHN. I AM SURE IT WILL NOT HAVE THAT EFFECT, MR. MADIGAN, BECAUSE OF THE GUIDANCE WHICH I DESCRIBED. AND AS I SAY, IF I COULD I WOULD LIKE TO GET SOMETHING TO YOU FOR THE RECORD THAT WOULD EXPLAIN HOW THAT IS THE CASE.

MR. MADIGAN. DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD HAVE A FEDERAL LAW THAT REQUIRES THAT THE STATE IMPLEMENTATION PLANS ALLOW THE LOCATION OF AT LEAST ONE OF THESE PLANTS IN EACH STATE?

MR. PLEHN. I REALLY WOULD NOT KNOW WHETHER THAT WOULD BE THE MECHANISM FOR DOING THAT. I WOULD HAVE TO CONSULT WITH MY COLLEAGUES AND, I THINK, HET BACK TO YOU ON THAT QUESTION.

MR. MADIGAN. YOU HAVE TOLD US WHAT YOUR ACTIVITITES HAVE BEEN AND WHAT THE ACTIVITIRES OF THE EPA HAVE BEEN, AND YOU HAVE HAD SOMETHING TO SAY AND I AM VERY GRATEFUL FOR THAT, BUT THERE IS AND HAS BEEN THE ACTIVITY YOU HAVE DESCRIBED. YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN US A WISH LIST. YOU HAVE NOT SAID ANYTHING TO THE COMMITTEE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE FOR US TO DO IN THE WAY OF ADDITIONAL PROVIDING FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO ENGAGE IN ADDITIONAL ACTIVITY.

ARE THERE THINGS WE COULD NO TO MOVE THESE THINGS ALONG ANY QUICKER?

MR. PLEHN. OUR BASIC FEELING IS -- AND I THINK THAT THIS IS WHAT THE CHAIRMAN SAID EARLIER -- THAT THESE PLANTS CAN BE OPERATED IF THEY ARE WELL-PLANNED ON AN ECONOMIC BASIS; THAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR CAN PROVIDE THE TECHNOLOGY AND THAT THESE SYSTEMS CAN MOVE AHEAD. I THINK WE HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF HOPE AND, I THINK, CONFIDENCE THAT THE PROGRAM WHICH I JUST DESCRIBED WILL OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS MAKE A GREAT DEAL OF DIFFERENCE.

I NEGLECTED TO MENTION THAT THE PRESIDENT'S BUDGET FOR FISCAL YEAR 1980 REQUESTS AN ADDITIONAL $13,950 MILLION FOR THIS PROGRAM OF GRANTS TO COMMUNITIES TO ASSIST THEM IN PLANNING AND PROCURING THESE SYSTEMS. WE WOULD CERTAINLY HOPE THAT THOSE FUNDS WOULD BE FORTHCOMING. IN THE PRESIDENT'S MESSAGE IN WHICH HE RECOMMENDED THIS PROGRAM, HE INDICATED THAT THIS WOULD BE A 3-YEAR PROGRAM. WE FEEL STRONGLY THAT A THIRD YEAR WOULD BE DESIRABLE ALSO.

BUT I GUESS MY ANSWER WOULD BE THAT I THINK THAT AS FAR AS EPA'S PROGRAM PER SE IS CONCERNED, THAT WE HAVE NOW GOT IT, I THINK, WELL DESIGNED. I THINK WE HAVE IT UNDER OPERATION AND I THINK IT WILL BE OF MATERIAL ASSISTANCE TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND TO THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT WERE NOT DESPERATE TO GET RESOURCE RECOVERY TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN ACHIEVING THAT.

M. MADIGAN. I HAVE ONLY ONE MORE QUESTION AND IT IS ONLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF CLARIFYING SOMETHING IN MY MIND. YOU TALKED ABOUT THE FINANCING PROBLEMS FOR THESE PLANTS. I HAVE BEEN UNDER THE IMPRESSION SINCE WE JOINTLY SPONSORED WITH THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS A SYMPOSIUM ON THI ACTIVITY, CALLING IN PEOPLE FROM ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY WHO HAVE HAD SOME EXPERIENCE, THAT IN ORDER FOR THESE PLANTS TO BE ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE ALL OF THE WASTE COLLECTED AND PROCESSED AT THE SAME TIME.

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I UNDERSTOOD YOU TO SUGGEST THAT SOME THINGS SHOULD BE TAKEN OUT IN FRONT, AND I AM A LITTLE BIT CONFUSED BY THAT. PERHAPS I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND YOU.

MR. PLEHN. I CAN EXPLAIN THAT IN GENERAL TERMS. IF YOU LIKE, I COULD GET YOU MORE DETAILED INFORMATION. BUT BASICALLY I THINK THAT EVERYONE HAS NOW COME TO THE REALIZATION THAT ON THE ONE HAND, IT IS -- LET US TAKE PAPER -- A HIGHER VALUE PRODUCT TO TAKE NEWSPAPER AND OTHER PAPER OUT AT THE FRONT END OF A PROJECT THAN IT IS TO TURN IT INTO BTU'S AND GET ENERGY OUT OF IT. ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN, EVERYONE HAS REALIZED THAT THE TAKING OUT OF THAT PAPER DOES NOT REALLY SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT THE ENERGY ECONOMICS OF THE PLANT AND DOES NOT PUT THE PLANT'S FINANCING IN JEOPARDY.

THE CASE EXAMPLE OF THIS IS SAUGUS, MASS., THE PLANT FATHER DDRINAN TALKED ABOUT. WHEN THEY ORIGINALLY OPENED THAT PLANT 3 OR 4 YEARS AGO, THEY INSISTED THAT ALL OF THE PARTICIPATING COMMUNITIES HAVE ORDINANCES THAT SAID NO SOURCE SEPARATION WAS ALLOWED, AND THERE WAS QUITE A STORM ABOUT THAT. BUT THE COMPANY, WHEELERBURY-FRY, HAS SINCE CONCLUDED THAT THEY DID NOT NEED TO TAKE THAT POSITION, AND IN FACT HAS REVERSED THAT DECISION AND SAID: "WE DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH SOURCE SEPARATION. WE CAN GET ENOUGH BTU'S OUT OF THE REMAINING WASTE TO MAKE OUR ECONOMICS WORK."

I THINK THAT IS THE GENERAL PERCEPTION NOW THAT IT HELD BY EVERYONE IN THE RESOURCE RECOVERY COMMUNITY.

MR. MADIGAN. THE ONLY OTHER THING THAT FITS INTO THAT ARE THE BOTTLE BILLS. WE HAVE A BOTTLE BILL INTRODUCED IN CONGRESS. IT HAS A NUMBER OF SPONSORS AND I BELIEVE IT HAS BEEN REFERRED TO THIS SUBCOMMITTEE. DOES THE BOTTLE BILL HAVE THE POTENTIAL OF REDUCING THE ECONOMIC VIABILITY OF THESE PLANTS?

MR. PLEHN. NO, SIR. I THINK THE EFFECT WOULD BE THE OPPOSITE. I THINK IT WOULD INCREASE THE RELIABILITY OF THESE PLANTS BECAUSE, AT LEAST IN THOSE PLANTS, LET US SAY THE WATER WALL INCINERATORS IN WHICH YOU ARE INCINERATING ALL OF THE WASTE AND THEREFORE THE GLASS IS IN THAT, GLASS IS A PROBLEM IN TERMS OF CAUSING SLAGGING AND CORROSION WITHIN THE PLANT.

SO, TO THE EXTENT THAT THE AMOUNT OF GLASS IN THE WASTE BEING COMBUSTED IS REDUCED, THE RELIABILITY OF THE PLANT AND THE RISKS INVOLVED IN THE PLANT ARE REDUCED. SO I THINK THOSE ARE HIGHLY COMPATIBLE.

MR. MADIGAN. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

MR. FLORIO. WHAT IS THE TECHNOLOGY AT SAUGUS?

MR. PLEHN. THE WATERWALL INCINERATOR, MR. CHAIRMAN.

MR. FLORIO. MR SANTINI.

MR. SANTINI. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN.

I AM CONCERNED IN THE REALM OF SUBTITLE D, STATE OR REGIONAL SOLID WASTE PLANS. A PARTICULAR PROBLEM HAS ARISEN IN RURAL AREAS OF NEVADA AS THE STATE MOVES FORWARD TO PROMULGATE ITS PLAN WITH REGARD TO THE COST OF SOLID WASTE DISPOSAL OR THE ELIMINATION OF OPEN LAND DUMP SITES. THERE IS ALSO A VERY SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC REALITY IMPOSED ON SOME OF THESE SMALL POPULATION, LARGE LAND MASS COUNTIES COMPOSED OF ONLY 2 OR 3 PERCENT PRIVATE LAND OUT OF THOUSANDS OF THOUSANDS OF ACRES.

THEY HAVE VERY LITTLE IN THE WAY OF A TAX BASE ON WHICH TO OPERATE.

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THEY HAVE BEEN NICKEL AND DIMING IT FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, AND THEY ARE TOLD WITHIN THE NEXT 5 YEARS THEY HAVE TO COME UP WITH $250,000 TO ELIMINATE AN OPEN DUMP SITE.

THAT PHASE OF THE LAW ALSO DOES NOT MAKE THE SIGNIFICANT PROVISION FOR ECONOMIC ASSISTANCE, AND THEREFORE THE SAMLLER COUNTIES, THE SMALLER RURAL COUNTIES, FUND THEMSELVES BETWIXT AND BETWEEN. THERE ARE VERY FEW PEOPLE WHO RUN FOR CITY COUNCIL THERE ADVOCATING OPEN DUMP SITES, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY ARE FACED WITH A VERY SUBSTANTIAL ECONOMIC REALITY. WE WOULD JUST AS SOON PUT IT UNDERGROUND TOO, BUT WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR IT?

WE ARE LUCKY TO GET OUR SEWERS IN, LET ALONE THE ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCE OF ELIMINATING THE DUMP SITES FOR A QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLARS, WHICH WAS THE PROPOSAL 2 YEARS AGO IN ONE OF THE RURAL COUNTIES WITH A 6,000-PEIPLE POPULATION BASE AND 2-PERCENT PRIVATE LAND FROM WHICH TO GENERATE FUNDS TO PERFORM PUBLIC FUNCTIONS. I SOULD APPRECIATE YOUR THOUGHT OR COMMENT ON THAT PROBLEM.

MR. PLEHN. WELL, MR. SANTINI, I THINK YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT IN SAYING THAT FOR SMALL, RURAL COMMUNITIES WITH A LIMITED TAX BASE, THAT PROVISION OF SOLID WASTE SERVICES THAT REALLY MEET ALL ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS TENDS TO BE A DIFFICULT THING ECONOMICALLY. AS YOU PROBABLY ARE AWARE, SECTION 4009 OF THE RESOURCE CONSERVATION RECOVERY ACT AUTHORIZED GRANT ASSISTANCE TO RURAL COMMUNITIES.

WE HAVE NOT, WITHIN THE FUNDING THAT HAS BEEN AVAILABLE TO US, IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES ASSIGNED TO US IN THAT ACT, BEEN ABLE TO RECOMMEND FUNDING UNDER THAT SECTION OF THE ACT. I AM AWARE THAT THERE IS SOME FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE AVAILABLE FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND I WILL BE GLAD TO SUMBIT FOR THE RECORD WHERE THAT ASSISTANCE IS AVAILABLE, THE FARMERS HOME ADMINISTRATION AND THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT ADMINISTRATION AND SOME OTHER ORGANIZATIONS.

BUT WE HAVE NOT BEEN, AS I SAY, ABLE TO ASSIGN PRIORITIES SUFFICIENT TO RECOMMEND FUNDING FOR THAT SECTION.

MR. SANTINI. HAS ANY MONEY BEEN EITHER AUTHORIZED OR APPROPRIATED UNDER SECTION 4009?

MR. PLEHN. NO, SIR.

MR. SANTINI. SO WE HAVE THE VERY FRUSTRATING CATCH-22 SITUATION, AT LEAST IN THE RURAL CONSTITUENCY, THAT THEY ARE MANDATED TO DO SOMETHING THAT THEY DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO DO. AND THEY THE TURN AND DIRECT THEIR PLEA FOR RELIEF TO THEIR DEDICATED CONGRESSMEN. AND YOUR SUGGESTION TO ME IN TERMS OF RESPONSE IS THAT THERE ARE OTHER SOURCES OF FUNDING AVAILABLE TO THEM?

MR. PLEHN. ONE FORM OF ASSISTANCE THAT IS AVAILABLE TO THEM DURRENTLY IS UNDER RCRA, UNDER OUR PROGRAM, IS TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE UNDER THE TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE PANELS PROGRAM. I KNOW OF A NUMBER OF SPECIFIC RURAL COUNTIES WHERE THAT KIND OF ASSISTANCE HAS BEEN PROVIDED AND WHERE I UNDERSTAND IT HAS BEEN HELPFUL.

I WOULD ENCOURAGE ANY OF YOUR COMMUNITIES WHO THINK THEY NEED HELP TO CONTACT OUR REGIONAL OFFICE IN SAN FRANCISCO AND TALK TO THEM ABOUT WHAT KIND OF HELP UNDER THAT PROGRAM MIGHT BE AVAILABLE TO THEM.

MR. SANTINI. MR. CHAIRMAN, I MOVE BY UNANIMOUS CONSENT THAT A SPECIFICATION OF OTHER POSSIBLE AREAS OF FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO RURAL COUNTIES OR MUNICIPALITIES BE INCLUDED AT THIS POINT IN THE RECORD.

MR. FLORIO. WITHOUT OBJECTION, WE WOULD BE HAPPY TO RECEIVE FROM YOU YOUR SUGGESTIONS.

(THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL WAS RECEIVED FOR THE RECORD:)

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HONORABLE JAMES J. FLORIO CHAIRMAN SUBCOMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND COMMERCE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WASHINGTON, D.C. 20515

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO CONGRESSMAN SANTINI'S REQUEST FOR INFORMATION AT THE HEARING ON WEDNESDAY REGARDING FEDERAL FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO RURAL AREAS FOR SOLID WASTE MANAGEMENT.

THE FARMERS HOME ADMINISTRATION IS CURRENTLY MAKING GRANTS OR GUARANTEEING LOANS TO RURAL AREAS FOR SOLID WASTE TYPE PROJECTS. FHA HAS TWO PROGRAMS UNDER WHICH RURAL COMMUNITIES ARE ELIGIBLE FOR FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE.

THE FIRST IS THE COMMUNITY FACILITIES LOAN PROGRAM WHICH IS A $250 MILLION ANNUAL PROGRAM. BASED ON THE BEST ESTIMATES OF FHA PERSONNEL, ABOUT ONE MILLION DOLLARS OF THE AVAILABLE FUNDS ARE USED FOR LOANS FOR SOLID WASTE EQUIPMENT AND FACILITIES IN RURAL AREAS.

THE SECOND FHA PROGRAM IS THE WATER AND WASTE DISPOSAL PROGRAM.

THIS PROGRAM HAD A FY 1977 BUDGET OF $197 MILLION FOR

GUARANTEED LOANS AND $82 MILLION FOR GRANTS. IN FY 1977 FHA MADE

ONE GRANT FOR $30,000 AND THREE GUARANTEED LOAN GRANTS FOR

$362,000 IN THE SOLID WASTE AREAS.

IN AN ATTEMPT TO ANSWER YOUR REQUEST, WE INVESTIGATED ALL OTHER KNOWN SOURCES OF FEDERAL FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE IN SOLID WASTE.

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FOLLOWING IS A LIST OF OTHER FEDERAL ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS WHICH WE CONTACTED CONCERNING POSSIBLE HELP TO RURAL AREAS. ALTHOUGH NONE OF THE PORGRAMS SPECIFICALLY MENTION SOLID WASTE PLANNING, COLLECTION, PROCESSING OR DISPOSAL, THE OBJECTIVES AND USES OF THE PROGRAM MAKE SOLID WASTE PROJECTS ELIGIBLE FOR FEDERAL ASSISTANCE FROM THESE SOURCES. THE FEDERAL DOMESTIC ASSISTANCE CATALOGUE PROVIDES MORE INFORMATION ON THESE PROGRAMS; THE CATALOGUE NUMBER FOLLOWS EACH PROGRAM TITLE.

HUD COMMUNITY PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT GRANTS (14,203)

OBJECTIVES: TO ASSIST IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF PUBLIC FACILITIES NEEDED TO ENCOURAGE LONG TERM ECONOMIC GROWTH IN AREAS WHERE ECONOMIC GROWTH IS LAGGING BEHIND THE REST OF THE NATION.

APPALACHIAN REGIONAL COMMISSION -- COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT GRANTS (23,002)

OBJECTIVES: TO MEET BASIC NEEDS OF LOCAL AREAS AND ASSIST IN PROVIDING COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT OPPORTUNITIES BY FUNDING SUCH FACILITIES AS WATER AND SEWER SYSTEMS, SEWAGE TREATMENT, INDUSTRIAL SITES AND OTHER COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT FACILITIES.

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT ADMINISTRATION -- GRANTS AND LOANS FOR PUBLIC WORKS AND DEVELOPMENT FACILITIES (11,300)

OBJECTIVES: TO ASSIST IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF PUBLIC FACILITIES NEEDED TO INITIATE AND ENCOURAGE LONG TERM GROWTH IN GEOGRAPHIC AREAS WHERE ECONOMIC GROWTH IS LAGGING.

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY -- 208 STATE AND AREAWIDE WATER QUALITY MANACEMENT PLANNING (66,426)

OBJECTIVES: TO ENCOURAGE AND FACILITATE THE DEVELOPMENT AND IMPLEMENTATION OF WATER QUALITY MANAGEMENT PLANS BY AREAWIDE AGENCIES AND BY THE STATE IN NON-DESIGNATED PLANNING AREAS. A KEY FEATURE OF THIS PORGRAM, NOT STATED IN THE CATALOGUE, IS THAT SOLID WASTE IS CONSIDERED A "RESIDUAL" IMPACTING ON WATER SUPPLIES AND ABOUT 20 PERCENT OF THE FUNDING IS TO BE SPENT ON "RESIDUALS" SUCH AS AGRICULTURAL, MINING AND OTHER SOLID WASTES.

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COASTAL ENERGY IMPACT PROGRAM -- ENVIRONMENTAL GRANTS (11.424)

OBJECTIVES: TO HELP STATES AND LOCAL GOVERMENTS PREVENT, REDUCE

OR AMELIORATE UNAVOIDABLE LOSS OF VALUABLE ENVIRONMENTAL OR

RECREATIONAL RESOURCES RESULTING FROM COASTAL ENERGY ACTIVITY.

THE GENERATION OF NEW WASTES OR INFLUX OF POPULATION FOR DEVELOPING

NEW OR EXPANDED ENERGY SOURCES WOULD MAKE SOLID WASTE PROJECTS

IN THESE AREAS ELIGIBLE FOR FEDERAL ASSISTANCE.

FARMERS HOME ADMINISTRATION -- IN ADDITION TO THE TWO PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED PROGRAMS ALREADY FUNDING RURAL SOLID WASTE PROJECTS, A THIRD FHA PROGRAM IS THE BUSINESS AND INDUSTRIAL LOAN PROGRAM (10.422)

OBJECTIVES: TO ASSIST PUBLIC, PRIVATE OR COOPERATIVE ORGANIZATIONS . . .INDIAN TRIBES OR INDIVIDUALS IN RURAL AREAS TO OBTAIN QUALITY LOANS FOR THE PURPOSE OF . . . IMPORVING THE ECONOMIC AND ENVIRONMENTAL CLIMATE IN RURAL COMMUNITIES INCLUDING POLLUTION ABATEMENT AND CONTROLS.

I HOPE THIS INFORMATION IS HELPFUL TO YOU.

CC: HONORABLE JIM SANTINI HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

HONORABLE EDWARD R. MADIGAN HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

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MR. SANTINI. AND WOULD YOU BE KIND ENOUGH, MR. PLEHN, TO SEND ME A COPY OF THAT AS WELL?

MR. PLEHN. YES, SIR.

MR. SANTINI. IS THERE ANY CONSIDERATION WITHIN EPA TO MODERATE THE MANDATE, EITHER IN TERMS OF TIMETABLES OR CONTENTS, AS IT APPLIES TO OR AFFECTS THOSE RURAL COUNTIES THAT SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES TO IMPLEMENT THE MANDATE OF THE RULE, REGULATION OR LAW?

MR. PLEHN. THE SUBTITLE D PROGRAM, MR. SANTINI, WHICH IS THE PROGRAM DIRECTED AT OTHER THAN HAZARDOUS WASTES, IS A BASICALLY STATE AND LOCAL PROGRAM. THE FEDERAL ROLE IN THAT AREA IS A LIMITED ONE. WE ARE DIRECTED BY THE LAW TO DEVELOP CRITERIA DEFINING SOUND LAND DISPOSAL AS OPPOSED TO OPEN DUMPS. WE ARE DIRECTED TO CONDUCT AN INVENTORY, WHICH WE WILL BE DOING THROUGH THE STATE GOVERNMENTS, OF EXISTING DISPOSAL SITES TO DETERMINE WHETHER THEY COMPLY OR WHETHER THEY DO NOT.

WE ARE DIRECTED TO HELP THE STATE DEVELOP A STATE PLAN AND EXPAND ITS REGULATORY POWERS TO DEAL WITH ALL OF THE OTHER THAN HAZARDOUS WASTE STREAMS IN THE STATES. SO I SAY THE BASIC DECISIONS ABOUT THE PACING OF THE INVENTORY, LET'S SAY, IN YOUR STATE OR OTHER STATES, AND DECISIONS ABOUT HOW TO PROCEED AS A RESULT OF THAT INVENTORY, WILL REST HEAVILY AT THE STATE LEVEL RATHER THAN WITH EPA ITSELF.

MR. SANTINI. WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, THE PROBLEM AS IT IS TRANSLATED BACK TO ME IN THE FORM OF EXASPERATED CITY COUNCILMEN OR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS IS SUGGESTED TO BE ONE OF FEDERAL ORIGIN RATHER THAN STATE ORIGIN. PERHAPS IT IS A CLASSIC GOVERNMENTAL BUCKPASSING.

MR. PLEHN. NO. I CAN UNDERSTAND HOW THAT WOULD BE THE PERCEPTION BECAUSE WE DO HAVE THIS ASSIGNMENT TO DEVELOP THESE CRITERIA AND THEY WILL PROBABLY IDENTIFY AN LOT OF FACILITIES THAT ARE PRESENTLY BEING OPERATED IN RURAL COUNTIES AS BEING OPEN DUMPS. I THINK THAT WILL BE THE RESULT FOR THE REASONS YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER.

MR. SANTINI. DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS TO HELP RETRIEVE MY RURAL COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AND CITY COUNCILMEN FROM THIS DAMNABLE DILEMMA?

MR. PLEHN. I THINK THE ONLY OTHER POINT I COULD MAKE IS THAT OUR GENERAL FEELING IS THAT THE SOLUTION TO THE FINANCING OF BOTH THE SOLID WASTE MANAGEMENT PROGRAMS AT STATE AND REGIONAL LEVEL, AND PERHAPS AT LEAST THE DESIGNING OF THE SOLUTION OF THOSE PROPOSALS TO THOSE PROBLEMS SHOULD BE INCREASINGLY BASED ON USER CHARGES ASSESSED AT THE STATE LEVEL.

ACCORDING TO THE COUNCIL ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY, WE ARE PRESENTLY SPENDING IN THIS SOCIETY OVER $8 BILLION PER YEAR FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF OTHER THAN HAZARDOUS WASTE, AND WE FEEL IT IS APPROPRIATE AND DESIRABLE THAT MANY STATES FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF SIX OR EIGHT, OF WHICH NEW JERSEY IS ONE, WHICH IN EFFECT PUTS A SMALL TAX ON THAT VOLUME OF EXPENDITURES IN ORDER TO GENERATE THE FUNDS NEEDED TO IMPROVE THE LEVEL OF SOLID WASTE MANAGEMENT IN THEIR STATES.

NOW, WHETHER THAT IS A DESIRABLE OR FEASIBLE COURSE FOR THE STATE OF NEVADA, I DON'T KNOW. BUT WE ARE ENDEAVORING TO STUDY THOSE STATES WHICH HAVE THESE SYSTEMS AND DEVELOP TECHNICAL INFORMATION AND ASSISTANCE SO THAT WE CAN WORK WITH ALL OF THE OTHER STATES TO SEE IF MAYBE THAT ISN'T A GOOD SOLUTION TO THEIR FINANCING PROBLEMS.

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MR. SANTINI. I THINK THE PROBLEM HAS TWO DIMENSIONS TO IT, AND I HOPE YOUR STUDY WILL ENCOMPASS THESE CONSIDERATIONS. ON THE ONE HAND, IF YOU ARE DEALING WITH AN URBAN POPULATION. I THINK THAT APPEARS IMMINENTLY REASONABLE. AND YOU HAVE IN MOST URBAN SITUATIONS, I THINK, A POPULACE WHICH IS MORE RECEPTIVE TO INCREASED TAXATION BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED OVER THE YEARS THAT THAT IS A WAY OF LIFE.

BUT IN THE RURAL AREAS, PARTICULARLY THOSE OF SMALL POPULATION AND LIMITED RESOURCE SITUATIONS, AN INCREASE OF A DUMPING FEE OR GARBAGE COLLECTION FEE FROM $5 TO $15 BECOMES A MATTER ON WHICH ALL MEMBERS OF THE EXISTING COUNTY COMMISSION ARE BROUGHT OUT OF OFFICE. IT IS REPRESENTATIVE, IF YOU WILL, OF NEW TAXATION, IN WHATEVER FORM OR SHAPE IT ASSUMES. FOR THOSE WHO SEEK ELECTIVE OFFICE AND HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN OBTAINING IT, IT DOES NOT REPRESENT A RATIONAL SOLUTION UNLESS THEY ARE ANXIOUS TO LEAVE ELECTIVE OFFICE AND RETURN TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

MR. PLEHN. I UNDERSTAND THAT, THE ONLY POINT I WOULD ADD TO THAT IS THAT WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS, WE ARE NOT ONLY TALKING ABOUT MUNICIPAL WASTE GENERATED BY HOUSEHOLDS AND HANDLED BY MUNICIPALITIES. WE ARE ALSO TALKING ABOUT INDUSTRIAL WASTES WHICH ARE OTHER THAN HAZARDOUS.

I THINK THAT PROVIDES BOTH A RESPONSBILITY, AS DEFINED IN RCRA, THAT THOSE WASTES INCREASINGLY WILL HAVE TO BE REGULATED TO PORTECT THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENT, AND AN OPPORTUNITY TO RAISE REVENUES TO SUPPORT SOME OF THESE OTHER PROGRAMS.

MR. SANTINI. UNLESS WE WERE TO TAX THE COWS, I THING WE WOULD LOSE IN THAT RESPECT.

THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN.

MR. FLORIO. MR. PLEHN, YOU HAVE HEARD THE CONVERSATION WITH RESPRESENTATIVES OF THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE WITH REGARD TO THE PROCUREMENT AND RECYCLING POLICY AND THE APPARENT FAILURE TO COME FORWARD WITH ANY SUBSTANTIAL NEW CHANGE IN GOVERNMENTAL POLICY WHICH WOULD ENCOURAGE THE USE BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMET OF RECYCLED MATERIALS. WOULD YOU RESPOND?

MR. PLEHN. YES, SIR. UNDER SECTION 6002 OF RCRA, THE CONGRESS DIRECTED A NUMBER OF THINGS. THEY FIRST SAID, TO AGENCIES THAT BUY FOR THE GOVERNMENT, WE WANT YOU TO, ONE, REMOVE ANY BIASES THAT YOU MAY HAVE IN YOUR SPECIFICATIONS AGAINST VIRGIN MATERIALS. WE WANT YOU TO, SECOND, CHANGE YOUR SPECIFICATIONS SO THAT THEY WILL PERMIT YOU TO PROCURE THE MAXIMUM PRACTICABLE AMOUNT OF GOODS CONTAINING RECOVERED MATERIALS, PROVIDING IT IS CONSISTENT WITH EFFICIENT PROCUREMENT AND ADEQUATE COMPETITION AND SOME OTHER THINGS OF THIS SORT.

AND THEN YOU DIRECTED US TO DEVELOP GUIDELINES.

MR. FLORIO. "US" BEING EPA?

MR. PLEHN. EPA. TO BE USED BY THESE PROCUREMENT OFFICIALS AS THEY UNDERTOOK THIS PROCUREMENT.

NOW, I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IN THE ACT IS THAT YOU LAID THIS PROBLEM ON THE PROCURING OFFICIALS TO COMPLETE IT BY THIS LAST FALL, AND THAT WAS AT THE SAME TIME THAT WE WERE DOING THE INITIAL WORK ON DEVELOPING THE GUIDELINES WHICH PRESUMABLY THESE PRODUREMENT AGENCIES WOULD HAVE USED. SO THAT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME PROBLEMS IN THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THAT SECTION.

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MR. FLORIO. WHY DIDN'T THE DEVELOPMENT OF GUIDELINES FROM EPA GO FORWARD MUCH MORE EXPEDITIOUSLY? SINCE WE KNEW THE AGENCIES HAD TO BE ON LINE BY A PARTICULAR TIME, AND ONE WOULD ASSUME THAT THE GUIDELINES WOULD BE HELPFUL TO THEM, DON'T YOU THINK IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN DESIRABLE FOR EPA TO HAVE PROVIDED THE GUIDELINES EARLIER ON SO THAT THE AGENCIES COULD ABIDE BY THE LAW?

MR. PLEHN. YES, SIR. I THINK THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DESIRABLE. WE HAVE BEEN WORKING AHEAD ON THIS. WE HAVE HAD CONTRACTS IN WHICH WE HAVE DEVELOPED INFORMATION, AND WE ARE IN THAT POSITION WITHIN THE NEXT SEVERAL MONTS TO ISSUE A NUMBER OF THESE GUIDELINES IN PROPOSED FORM FOR THE REACTIONS BOTH OF THE PROCUREMENT COMMUNITY AND OF THE SUPPLIER COMMUNITY.

OUT INTIIAL EFFORTS ARE CONCENTRATING ON PAPER, ON THE USE OF FLY ASH IN CONCRETE, ON THE USE OF SLUDGE AS A SOIL CONDITIONER, AND ON THE USE OF RECOVERED MATERIALS TO MEET OTHER CONSTRUCTION SPEDIVICATION. BASICALLY WHAT WE HAVE DONE IS TO LOOK AT WHAT THE GOVERNMENT BUYS AND LOOK AT WHAT IS IN THE WASTE STREAM WHICH IS RECOVERABLE, AND TRY TO HONE IN ON THOSE AREAS WHERE THE GOVERNMENT'S SPECIFICATIONS CAN HAVE THE MAXIMUM IMPACT IN REDUCING THE WASTE STREAM.

ALL I CAN SAY IS WE ARE MOVING FORWARD WITH THAT AS RAPIDLY AS WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO. WE HAVE ALSO PREPARED AN AMENDMENT WHICH IS NOW IN REVIEW WITHIN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, A PROPOSED AMENDMENT, WHICH WOULD ATTEMPT TO BETTER DEFINE THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE ACTIONS OF THE PROCUREMENT OFFICIALS AND OUR WORK UNDER THE GUIDELINES SO THAT THE PROCUREMENT OFFICIALS COULD REALLY -- WE COULD DO ALL THE DETAILED ANALYTICAL WORK AND THEN MAKE IT AVAILABLE TO THEM, AND THEY COULD TAKE THEIR GUIDANCE FROM THE GUIDELINES AND PROCEED TO UNDERTAKE THE TASK.

BUT AS I SAY, WE DO HAVE SOME IDEAS HOW WE THINK THAT 6002 CAN BE SLIGHTLY MODIFIED IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT WHOLE EFFORT MORE EFFECTIVE.

MR. FLORIO. YOUR RESPONSE BRINGS OUT ANOTHER PROBLEM. I THINK THE BOTTOM LINE OF WHAT YOU JUST SAID IS THAT YOU DID NOT HAVE THE TIME TO GET THE GUIDELINES PUT TOGETHER PRIOR TO WHEN THE AGENCIES WERE TO INCORPORATE NEW PROCEDURES TO ENCOURAGE THE PURCHASING OF RECYCLED MATERIALS. IT IS A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE, AND I KNOW YOU ARE INVOLVED IN ALOT OF OTHER TINKGS.

THE PRIMARY EMPHASIS HAS BEEN ON HAZARDOUS WASTE, WHICH WAS APPROPRIATE, AND IF THAT IS THE CASE, AND IF YOU AGREE WITH THE THOUGHT THAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR SHOULD PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE IN SOLID WASTE AND RESOURCE RECOVERY, HAVE YOU GOT THE EXPERTISE OR THE TIME TO BECOME INVOLVED WITH PROMOTIONAL ACTIVITIES? CAN YOU ALSO DEVELOP SOME OF THESE GUIDELINES OR PROCUREMENT POLICIES THAT ARE NECESSARY IN ORDER TO GO FORWARD AND COORDINATE, AS WE TALKED ABOUT THIS MORNING, ALL OF THE GOVERNMENTAL ACTIVITES NEEDED TO EMPHASIZE SOLID WASTE AS A RESOURCE RECOVERY MECHANISM.

MR. PLEHN. YES, WE BELIEVE WE DO, MR. CHAIRMAN.

MR. FLORIO. IT REALLY HASN'T BEEN THAT GOOD TO THIS POINT. I WANT TO PUBLICLY STATE THAT I THINK YOU ARE DOING A FINE JOB IN THE EAREA OF HAZARDOUS WASTES. THERE HAVE BEEN SOME DELAYS, BUT I AM CONVINCED THE MAJOR THRUST OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING NOW IS A VERY GOOD AND IMPORTANT ONE, PERHAPS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT YOU ARE DOING.

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BUT I REALLY AM CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR BEING SPREAD ALL OVER THE PLACE AND NOT BEING ABLE TO GIVE THE IMPORTANCE TO THIS AREA THAT PERHAPS YOU SHOULD.

MR. PLEHN. I THINK OUR BASIC FEELING, MR. CHAIRMAN, IS THAT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE RECOVERY OF ENERGY OR MATERIALS FROM WASTE, YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE PRIMARY INITIATING ACTOR HAS TO BE THAT COMMUNITY OUT THERE THAT HAS THE GARBAGE AND HAS TO MANAGE IT, AND THAT COMMUNITIES GET INTO RESOURCE RECOVERY.

GRANTED, A LOT OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING ALL OF US IN THIS ROOM, WANT TO RECOVER ALL OF THE RESOURCES WE CAN FROM WASTE, BUT THEY GET INTO IT AS A PART OF THE PROCESS OF THEIR SOLID WASTE MANAGEMENT. I THINK THERE IS AN IMPORTANT ROLE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE HERE IN TERMS OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF THESE SPECIFICATIONS WHICH WOULD IMPROVE THE DIALOG BETWEEN THE PLANT THAT PRODUCES MATERIALS AND THE POTENTIAL CONSUMERS.

I THINK THAT THERE IS AN IMPORTANT ROLE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY WITH THEIR ENERGY ORIENTATION, AND PARTICULARLY, AS I SAID, BECAUSE OF THEIR ABILITY TO SECURE RESOURCES TO MOVE FORWARD THE ADVANCEMENT OF TECHNOLOTY IN THIS AREA. BUT I THINK THAT IT IS CRITICAL TO EPA'S ROLE AS BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OVERALL MANAGEMENT OF SOLID WASTE TO PROTECT THE HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENT AND TO RECOVER THE RESOURCES, AND BECAUSE OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THE COMMUNITIES AND STATES IN BEING THE FRONT LINE FOLKS WHO ARE GOING TO IN FACT MAKE THIS HAPPEN, ALONG WITH PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, FOR THIS PROGRAM EFFORT THAT WE HAVE ORGANIZED HERE TO MOVE FORWARD.

MR. FLORIO. WELL, THERE IS A REAL QUESTION IN MY MIND AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN ORGANIZED. I WAS INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU SAID BEFORE ABOUT YOUR RECENT DEVELOPMENT OF GUIDELINES FOR THE GREATER UTILIZATION OF SLUDGE ON COMPOSTING AND FOR LAND DISPERSAL PROGRAM.

AS I HAVE INDICATED TO YOU BEFORE, A GRANT WAS GIVEN BY EPA TO THE CITY OF CAMDEN, IN MY DISTRICT, FOR CONVERTING SLUDGE INTO COMPOSTING. THE INITIAL PROBLEM WAS THAT SLUDGE COULD NOT BE DUMPED IN THE OCEAN, AND WE THEREFORE HAD A GREAT STORAGE PROBLEM. THE CITY HAD MONSTROUS WAREHOUSES OF SLUDGE.

NOW, WITHOUT APPARENTLY SUFFICIENT THOUGHT, A PROGARM NAS BEEN AUTHORIZED FOR THE TURNING OF SLUDGE INTO COMPOSTING. WE HAVE NOW FOUND THAT BECAUSE OF THE UNIQUE NATURE OF THE SLUDGE, WHICH HAS ARSENIC, CADMIUM, AND HEAVY MINERALS IN IT, THAT THE COMPOSTING CAN'T UTILIZE ON THE LAND BECAUSE IT IS STILL TO OFFENSIVE ENVIRONMENTALLY. NOW WE HAVE A PROBLEM STORING THE COMPOST THE SAME WAY WE HAD A PROBLEM STORING THE SLUDGE. NOW GUIDELINES ARE BEING DEVELOPED NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT MONEYS HAVE BEEN SPENT IN THE PAST.

LIKEWISE, TO MAKE A SPECIFIC LOCAL REFERENCE AGAIN, ONE HAND DOES NOT APPEAR TO KNOW WHAT THE OTHER HAND IS DOING. AS YOU KNOW, CANDEN COUNTY AND CAMDEN CITY WERE GRANTED THE PLANNING MONEYS FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN APPROPRIATE SOLID WASTE SYSTEM. ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COUNTY LINE, GLOUCESTER COUNTY HAS JUST BEEN GIVEN A GRANT FOR A PARTICULAR METHODOLOGY.

THAT IS, SOLID WASTE WOULD BE COMBINED WITH SLUDGE IN ORDER TO DISPOSE OF THE PROBLEM THAT THEY HAVE IN THAT DISTRICT, NOT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THAT IT MAY VERY WELL BE THAT THE APPROPRIATE PLANNING WILL REVEAL FOR CANDEN COUNTY THAT THE CATCHMENT AREA SHOULD NOT BE JUST CAMDEN COUNTY.

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PERHAPS IT SHOULD BE CAMDEN AND GLOUCESTER COUNTY.

YOU ARE LOCKED INTO ONE TECHNOLOGY IN ONE COUNTY WHEN YOU ARE DOING THE PLANNING IN ANOTHEF COUNTY, WHICH MAY SHOW THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE WAY OF DEALING WITH THE PROBLEM IS NOT ON A COUNTY-BY-COUNTY AREA. OF COURSE, THE OTHER STUDY WAS OUT OF DOE.

I REALLY HAVE SOME SERIOUS PROBLEMS AS TO WHETHER THERE IS A SYSTEM. YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT BEING THE LEAD AGENCY AND HAVE EXPRESSED AN INTEREST IN MAINTAINING THAT POSITION, BUT I HAVE NOT REALLY SEEN ANY SEMBLANCE OF ORGANIZATION OR COOPERATION OVER THE LAST 3 YEARS. THE PROCUREMENT EXAMPLE WAS A FINE ONE. THE FELLOW FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE CAME IN AND SAID THEY GOT INVOLVED NOT TO LONG AGO, THEN SORT OF WASHES HIS HANDS OF INVOLVEMENT. THAT BEHAVIOR IS NEITHER DESIRABLE NOR IS IT CONDUCIVE TO BUILDING THE CONFIDENCE OF THIS COMMITTEE AND OF CONGRESS AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON, PARTICULARLY WHEN WE ARE COMING UP FROM AUTHORIZATION AND ARE ALSO LOOKING TO PROVIDE YOU WITH MORE MONEY.

MR. MADIGAN'S POINT BEFORE TO THE DEPARMTNET OF COMMERCE, SHOULD,

I THINK, BE EQUALLY DIRECTED TO YOU. WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF WE

GAVE YOU MORE MONEY THEN YOU HAVE EVER REQUESTED? HOW WOULD

YOU SEPARATE THE PRIORITIES? HOW WOULD YOU GIVE US A PLAN WHICH

WOULD INDICATE HOW YOU ARE GOINT TO IMPROVE THE OPERATION OF THE

SOLID WASTE INITIATIVE SO WE CAN HAVE MORE CONFIDENCE IN WHAT YOU

ARE DOING?

MR. PLEHN. I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION AND I CAN CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THE BASIS FOR IT.

MR. FLORIO. I SUPPOSE IT WASN'T A QUESTION; IT WAS A SPEECH.

MR. PLEHN. JUST TO PICK UP ON YOUR LAST POINT, I THINK THIS AGREEMENT WHICH WE HAVE WORKED OUT WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY IS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM. IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT LAST YEAR BOTH WE AND THE DEPARMTNET OF ENERGY HAD WHAT WERE POTENTIALLY CONFLICTING PROGRAMS IN TERMS OF WORKING WITH THE LOCAL COMMUNITIES, AND AS A RESULT OF OUR AGREEMENT, THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY IS SAYING WE ARE GOINT TO GET OUT OF THAT, WE ARE NOT GOING TO DO THAT ANY MORE, WE ARE GOING TO LEAVE THAT TO YOU, EPA.

WE ARE SAYING THAT TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU, DOE, HAVE SPECIFIC TECHNOLOGY INTERESTS THAT YOU WANT TO PROMOTE, WE WILL HELP YOU GET IN TOUCH WITH THE RIGHT COMMUNITY FOR DOING THAT. SO I THINK IT IS EXACTLY THE DEAL WITH THE POINTS YOU HAVE JUST DESCRIBED, THAT THIS AGREEMENT WE HAVE WORKED OUT WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY WILL BE VERY BENEFICIAL.

IT CERTAINLY IS NOT AN EASY MATTER, AND I WOULD NOT WANT TO PRETEND THAT IT IS, TO COORDINATE THESE PROGRAMS BETWEEN FEDERAL AGENCIES OR EVEN WITHIN PARTICULAR AGENCIES. WE ALL TRY TO DO THAT THE BEST WE CAN. I THINK THAT IN THE RESOURCE RECOVERY AREA, THAT WE HAVE AT THIS TIME, I THINK, REALLY LAID THE VERY STRONG GROUNDWORK TO MAKE THESE PROGRAMS INTERACT TOGETHER.

PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, AS MR. BARUCH SAYS, IS THEY REALLY HAVE NOT HAD THE RESOURCES TO DO VERY MUCH OF ANYTHING IN THIS AREA UNTIL VERY RECENTLY.

MR. FLORIO. MR. MADIGAN.

MR. MADIGAN. I JUST HAVE ONE OTHER QUESTION AND I AM JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THE RESPONSBILITY LIES, IF ANYWHERE, AND IF NOT, WHERE WE CAN ASSIGN IT.

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I AM PARTICULARLY INTERESTED BECAUSE WE ARE THE TRANSPORTATION SUBCOMMITTEE AND BECAUSE WE HAVE OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE DON'T ATTEMPT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE DEADHEADING THAT OUR TRANSPORTATION VEHICLES DO.

IF I CAN GIVE YOU A CASE IN POINT, HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF TONS OF GRAINS ARE PROCESSED AT VARIOUS PROCESSING PLANTS IN THE MIDWEST, AND THEN THAT GRAIN IS HAULED TO SOUTHERN STATES WHERE IT IS FED TO CATTLE, OR TO GALVESTON WHERE IT IS SHIPPED OUT AT THE PORT, OR TO NEW ORLEANS WHERE IT IS SHIPPED OUT AT THE PORT.

WHATEVER THE VEHICLE FOR THAT SOUTHERN MOVEMENT IS, IT COMES BACK NORTH EMPTY, WHETHER IT IS A RAILROAD TRAIN, A BARGE OR OR WHATEVER IT IS. IT COMES BACK EMPTY BECAUSE THERE ARE NO BOAT COMMODITIES DOWN THERE TO BE MOVED BACK NORTH, BACK TO THE MIDWEST. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE COULD'NT BE HAULING SOLID WASTE OUT OF NEW ORLEANS OR GALVESTON OR SOMEWHERE ELSO IN THESE VEHICLES WHICH ARE EMPTY.

ANYWAY, BACK TO THESE GRAIN PROCESSING PLANTS, WHICH ARE VERY ENERGY INTENSIVE, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THINGS LIKE THAT CAN'T BE PUT TOGETHER, AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY 3 YEARS HAS GONE BY WITHOUT ANYONE TALKING TO US IN SOLID TERMS ABOUT PROPOSALS TO DO THAT.

NOW, I HAVE JUST ASKED MR. MALLOY WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY IT IS. IS IT THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE'S OR EPA'S OR WHOSE? HE SUGGESTED TO ME THAT UNDER THE EXISTING LAW, IT IS EVERYBODY'S RESPONSIBILITY: THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE IN THE SENSE THAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO FIND MARKETS FOR RECYCLABLE MATERIALS; THAT IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AND YOU SHOULD BE CONCERNED WITH FINDING WAYS OF DISPOSING SOLID WASTE. WHEN DO WE GET IDEAS LIKE THAT? WHO WORKS ON THOSE? AND WHY HAVEN'T WE ALREADY ONE ON IT?

MR. PLEHN. WELL, EPA HAS BEEN INVOLVED WITH THE RAIL HAUL OF SOLID WASTE FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS NOW. BACK IN THE LATE 1960'S WE COMMISSIONED A STUDY BY THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WORKS ASSOCIATION OF THE USE OF RAIL HAUL BY CITIES TO DEAL WITH THEIR GARBAGE, AND IN THE EARLY 1970'S, 1972, WE MADE DEMONSTRATION GRANTS TO TWO COMMUNITIES, TO CLEVELAND, OHIO, AND PHILADELPHIA. CLEVELAND THEN FOR SOME REASON DROPPED OUT AND ATLANTA BECAME THE SECOND PROJECT.

IN THE CASE OF ATLANTA, THE SOUTHERN RAILROAD, I BELIVE, WAS INVOLVED AND THE CONTRACT WITH THE RAILROAD EXPIRED BEFORE THE CITY HAD COMPLETED THE TRANSFER STATION WHICH WAS NEEDED TO MAKE THIS SYSTEM WORK. FOR THAT AND OTHER REASONS, I AM TOLD, THAT PROJECT DID NOT COME TO FRUITION.

IN THE CASE OF PHILADELPHIA, THERE WERE ENORMOUS PROBLEMS, INITIALLY, IN FINDING A RURAL LANDFILL WILLING TO ACCEPT THE WASTE FROM THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA. IT WAS REALLY A VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEM, AND THEY ABANDONED TRYING TO WORK IT OUT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF PHILADELPHIA AND RURAL COMMUNITIES, AND INSTEAD TURNED TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND SAID, CAN YOU FIND A LANDFILL, WHICH THEY SUCCEEDED IN DOING.

THAT TEST OPERATED FOR 13 WEEKS LAST YEAR. IT SHOWED THAT IT WORKED. I THINK THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THE COSTS WERE REALLY PRETTY HIGH. IT CAM TO ABOUT $15 A TOWN IN THAT INSTANCE, AND THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA THEN HAD SOME LESS EXPENSIVE OPTIONS OPEN TO IT IN THE SHORT RUN.

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I THINK THE MAJOR PROBLEMS WITH THE USE OF RAIL HAUL -- AND I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THERE ARE SYSTEMS IN OPERATION. ONE IS IN OPERATION IN OMAHA, AND THERE IS ONE IN OPERATION IN LONDON, ENGLAND, AND I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHERS. BUT THE BASIC PROBLEMS ARE, I THINK, FIRST THE PROBLEM OF FINDING SITES IN THE RURAL COMMUNITIES WILLING TO ACCEPT WASTE FROM URBAN AREAS. THAT IS JUST ONE ASPECT OF THE WHOLE SITING PROBLEM WHICH WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER.

THE SECOND PROBLEM IS COST, HOW THE ECONOMICS OF THESE THINGS WORK OUT. THE THIRD PROBLEM, I GUESS, GETS TO THE INTERACTION BETWEEN RAIL HAUL AS A WAY OF MOVING WASTE FOR DISPOSAL AND RESOURCE RECOVERY, BECAUSE I THINK IN A LOT OF CASES IT IS GOING TO TURN OUT THAT THE ECONOMICS OF RESOURCE RECOVERY NEAR THE METROPOLITAN AREA ARE GOING TO BE BETTER FOR A COMMUNITY THAN MOVING THE WASTE TO A DISTANT LOCATION BY RAIL.

MR. MADIGAN. BUT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, UNLIKE THE PHILADELPHIA EXPERIENCE, WE ARE TALKING HERE ABOUT TRAINS THAT MOVE LOADED FROM RURAL AREAS SEVERAL HUNDRED MILES INTO MAJOR METROPOLITAN AREAS AND THEN MOVE BACK, ALWAYS EMPTY. THEY NEVER HAVE ANYTHING TO HAUL BACK. SO THE ECONOMICS OF THAT ARE PERHAPS DIFFERENT THAN A TRAIN GOING BETWEEN PLACES WHERE IT OTHERWISE WOULD NOT GO.

MR. PLEHN. I LOOKED INTO THIS SOME YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS AT THE COUNCIL ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY, WITH REFERENCE TO SLUDGE. I REALLY ASKED THE SAME QUESTION, WHY COULDN'T TRAINS TAKE SLUDGE ON THE BACKHAUL FROM THE NORTHEAST TO THE CENTRAL PART OF THE COUNTRY. ONE OF THE ANSWERS I WAS GIVEN BY THE RAILROADS IS THAT FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, THEY WOULD RATHER TURN THOSE CARS AROUND AND GET THEM BACK FAST. THEY FEEL THAT THAT IS ECONOMICALLY BETTER THAN TAKING THEM TO ANOTHER POINT, LOADING THEM, TAKING THEM BACK, UNLOADING, AND THEN BRINGING THEM BACK AGAIN.

THAT IS A QUESTION I THINK YOU OUGHT TO ASK THE RAILROADS. BUT THAT WAS SOMEHO A PROBLEM IN THEIR ECONOMICS.

MR. MADIGAN. I DON'T WANT TO BELABOR IT. ID NO WANT TO REEMPHASIZE WHAT THE CHAIRMAN HAS SAID. EARLIER I ASKED YOU ABOUT YOUR WISH LIST, AND WE ARE VERY SERIOUS.

MR. PLEHN. YES SIR, I UNDERSTAND THAT, AND WE WILL RESPOND TO THAT.

MR. MADIGAN. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

MR. FLORIO. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. WE APPRECIATE YOUR HELP.

MRL PLEHN. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN.

MR. FLORIO. OUR NEXT WITNESS IS MR. BASIL SNIDER, PRESIDENT OF THE GARDEN STATE PAPER CO., ARLINGTON, VA. MR. SNIDER, WE WELCOME YOU TO THE COMMITTEE.

MR SNIDER. THANK YOU.

MR. FLORIO. AS INDICATED TO THE PREVIOUS WITNESSES, YOUR ENTIRE STATEMENT WILL ALSO BE INSERTED IN THE RECORD. WE ASK THAT YOU IDENTIFY YOUR COLLEAGUE FOR THE RECORD AND PROCEED IN A SUMMARY FASHION.

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