21. REVENUE BOND LIMIT IS SET BY THE LEGISLATURE.

22. THE AUTHORITY MUST CONSULT WITH THE BUILDING COMMISSION BEFORE ISSUING NOTES OR BONDS, BEFORE CONSTRUCTING RECYCLING FACILITIES OR CONTRACTING FOR THE USE OF PRIVATE FACILITIES.

23. LEGISLATURE APPROVES AUTHORITY'S BIENNIAL ADMINISTRATIVE BUDGET WITH FIXED CEILING.

24. PROTECTS PRIVATE WASTE PROCESSORS THROUGH DEFINITION OF SOLID WASTE, PROHIBITION FROM PURCHASING WASTE AND EXEMPTION FROM REQUIRED USE.

25. APPOINTMENTS TO AUTHORITY ARE SUBJECT TO SENATE CONFIRMATION.

26. REQUIRES SEMI-ANNUAL REPORTS ON FINANCIAL POSITION AND FUTURE PROJECTIONS, AS WELL AS ANNUAL REPORTS ON OPERATIONS AND ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

27. PRESCRIBES PROCEDURES FOR HOLDING PUBLIC HEARINGS ON REGIONAL PLANS AND CRITERIA ARE LISTED FOR MAKING DECISIONS ON REGIONAL BOUNDARIES.

28. AUTHORITY MUST MEET PRESCRIBED STANDARDS FOR BEST PUBLIC INTEREST BEOFRE IT CAN REQUIRE USE OF ITS FACILITIES.

29. RATES FOR SERVICES ARESUBJECT TO PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION APPROVAL.

30. AUTHORITY IS SUBJECT TO LOCAL ZONING.

ARLOE W. PAUL., VICE CHAIRMAN, GOVERNOR'S RECYCLING TASK FORCE.

MR. PAUL, NOW, WE HAD SO MANY CALLS FOR OUR PREDESIGNED REPORT AND IT WAS OF SUCH A TECHNICAL NATURE WE FELT WE HAD TO SIMPLIFY IT, SO WE MADE UP WHAT WE CALLED OUR LEGISLATIVE SUMMARY OR OUR EXECUTIVE SUMMARY AND THIS IS THE SECOND PRINTING AND WE ARE NOW IN THE THIRD PRINTING OF IT, IF YOU CAN IMAGINE THE DEMAND WE HAVE FOR IT.

ALSO, OUR PREDESIGNED REPORT, AS WE HAVC COMPLETCLY RUN OUT OF PREDESIGNED REPORTS, JUST FROM THE DEMAND ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, AND WE HAVE BEEN, I GUESS, IN SIX STATES TO MAKE SPEECHES, TO BE INTERVIEWED BY LEGISLATORS AND ASKED ABOUT OUR PROGRAMS.

STATEMENTS OF KASTEN R AND PAUL A W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AN INNOVATIVE PROGRAM AND LEGISLATION

750415

000073 ASSEMBLY BILL 922 CHAPTER 305, LAWS OF 000073

A REPORT ON THE WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING PROGRAM" 740000

PART 056 OF 63

KASTEN R W REPRESENTATIVE

PAUL A W CHAIRMAN

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AUTHORITY

WI LEGISLATURE

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING TASK FORCE

107760

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HOUSE

IN FACT, ONE MAN CALLED US NOT TOO LONG AGO AND ASKED IF HE COULD USE THE BILL AS IT WAS WRITTEN. I SAID, "WE HAVE NO PRIDE OF AUTHORSHIP, USE IT AS IT IS, IF YOU WANT TO."

MR. ROONEY. THIS IS THE KASTEN BILL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?

MR. PAUL. ALL RIGHT, WE WILL CALL IT THE KASTEN BILL, THATIS ALL RIGHT WITH ME.

MR. ROONEY. DO YOU WANT TO COMMENT ON THE SAMPLES YOU HAVE HERE?

MR. PAUL. FOR INSTANCE, THIS IS A PIECE I AHVE INMY HAND OF CLIPPED BOARD MADE FROM WOOD FIBERS, JUST GROUND UP FROM WOOD WASTE. WE HAVE HIRED A CONSULTANT AND HE IS OF THE OPINION THIS CAN BE MADE JUST AS WELL FROM GARBAGE, FROM SOLID WASTE, BECAUSE OF THE END FRACTION WHICH COMES OFF, IT IS CELLULOSE THE SAME AS THIS. IT HAS A FILLER.

AS YOU NOTICE, THIS COULD BE MACHINED BEAUTIFULLY AND IT TAKES PAINT OR VARNISH AND IS USED IN FURNITURE AND YOU CAN TAKE A SQUARE PIECE AND PUT IT IN A LATHE AND TURN IT LIKE YOU CAN A PIECE OF WOOD.

THIS IA A PIECE OF INSULATING MATERIAL ABOUT ONE-QUARTER OF AN INCH THICK AND 25 PERCENT OF THIS IS SOLID WASTE THAT MADE THIS PIECE, WHICH CAME FROM THE RECYCLING CENTER IN MADISON AND IT CAN BE MADE FROM 1/8 TO 2 INCHES THICK AND IS EXCELLENT INSULATING BOARD AND THEY HAVE MADE IT UP FROM AS HIGH AS 75 PERCENT GARBAGE. THE DENSITY IS ABOUT 60 POUNDS, SO YOU CAN SEE IT IS A PRETTY HARD BOARD AND THE SCREW TENSION IS EQUIVALENT TO HARDBOARD MADE FROM WOOD CHIPS.

THE CORRUGATED PART ON THIS PIECE OR CORRUGATED BOARD WAS MADE FROM RECYCLED PAPER. WE HAVE A COMPANY ALSO WHO IS VERY MUCH INTERESTED IN BUILDING A NEWSPRINT, OR (COPY ILLEGIBLE) AND NEWSPRINT RECYCLING FACILITY IN WISCONSIN BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NEWSPAPERS WILL TURN TO RECYCLED NEWSPRINT. THIS IS A PIECE OF WHAT THEY CALL FELT. THIS IS USED FOR MAKING SHINGLES AND IT IS LAID DOWN IN LAYERS AND THEN ASPHALTED WITH A SAND PUT ON TOP, THE GLASS THAT COMES FROM THE RECYCLING LINE CAN BE USED FOR THAT ON THE ASPHALT SINGLES RATHER THAN IN SAND.

THIS HAS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF COTTON AND WASTE ADDED TO IT.

NOW, HERE IS A TYPICAL PIECE OF WHAT APPEARS TO BE PLYWOOD. AS YOU NOTICE, THE LINER IS A VERY, VERY THIN PIECE OF PLYWOOD OR VENEER ON EITHER SIDE AND THAT IS FILLER BOARD. THAT CAN BE MADE FROM SOLID WASTE.

THIS IS THE ONE THING THAT WE HAVE TWO COMPANIES IN WISCONSIN NOW GOING INTO, AND WE ARE DESPERATELY LOOKING FOR MONEY FROM SOME GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY TO TAKE US FROM THE PRESENT STAGE WHICH HAS BEEN DEVELOPED BY THE FOREST RESEARCH LABORATORY IN MADISON INTO A LARGE PROTOTYPE, AND FROM THERE DO THE ACTUAL PRODUCTION.

WE HAVE A MAN AT OUR AUTHORITY MEETING NOT LONG AGO AND HE SAYS HE CAN ENVISION THE DAY THAT YOU WILL GRIND UP THE GARBAGE AND IN A PRESS, FOR INSTANCE, THIS ENERGITE CO., IN NORTH CAROLINA, OR SOUTH CAROLINA, IS BUILDING A PLANT USING WOOD TWIGS AND THEY HAVE A PRESS 8 FEET WIDE AND 65 FEET LONG AND THAT PRESSES ONE BOARD 8 FEET WIDE BY 65 FEET LONG, SO YOU CAN IMAGINE THE SIZE OF IT, BUT HE ENVISIONS THE POSSIBILITY EVENTUALLY YOU WILL PRESS IN A PREFAB HOME, YOU WILL PRESS THE WHOLE WALL AND IN THAT WALL WILL BE PRESSED THE STUDDING AND FOR INSULATION YOU WOULD USE THE SAME PRESS AND PRESS A FOAM LIKE MATERIAL MADE FROM THE GARBAGE AND GLUE IT IN AND YOU SHIP THE WHOLE WALL IN A ROOM AND YOU ORDER YOUR PREFAB HOME FROM A CATALOG.

STATEMENTS OF KASTEN R AND PAUL A W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AN INNOVATIVE PROGRAM AND LEGISLATION

750415

000073 ASSEMBLY BILL 922 CHAPTER 305, LAWS OF 000073

A REPORT ON THE WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING PROGRAM" 740000

PART 057 OF 63

KASTEN R W REPRESENTATIVE

PAUL A W CHAIRMAN

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AUTHORITY

WI LEGISLATURE

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING TASK FORCE

107761

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HOUSE

NOW, THE ADVANTAGE IS THAT ONCE THAT HOME, AS YOU KNOW PEOPLE MAKE SLUMS, AND ONCE IT BECOMES A SLUM YOU GO WITH THE BULLDOZER AND KNOCK IT DOWN AND PUT IT THROUGH THE PROCESS THEN AND DO IT OVER AGAIN.

MR. ROONEY. THE RECYCLING COMPANY IS PRIVATELY OWNED?

MR. PAUL. WELL, NOW, THE AUTHORITY IS NOT SO.

MR. ROONEY. I AM AWARE OF THE AUTHORITY.

MR. PAUL. YOU MEAN WE MIGHT CONTRACT WITH THEM, YES.

MR. ROONEY. RIGHT. THEY GET TO SKIM THE BEST OFF THE TOP AS YOU SAID.

MR. KASTEN. WELL, THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS ALREADY IN THE BUSINESS. THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS SUCH AS JUNK DEALERS, RECYCLING MEN, AND SO FORTH. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE AT ALL, WE ARE NOT IN COMPETITION WITH THEM. THAT WAS ESTABLISHED IN THE LEGISLATION.

THE THINGS THAT ARE THROWN AWAY AND ARE NOT PRESENTLY IN A RECYCLING SYSTEM, OR THE THINGS THAT THESE PRIVATE RECYCLING PEOPLE THROW AWAY, END UP IN THE HANDS OF THE AUTHORITY. THE AUTHORITY THEN WILL RUN A COLLECTION POINT, A TRANSFER STATION, A RECYCLING CENTER AND THE RECYCLING CENTER WILL SELL ITS RECYCLED MATERIALS TO OTHER PEOPLE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR WHO WILL THEN REMAKE THINGS FROM IT.

MR. ROONEY. ARE THEY ALL STATIONED, ALL OF THOSE MANUFACTURERS, IN WISCONSIN?

MR. PAUL. NO, WE HOPE WE CAN GET THEM TO COME TO WISCONSIN TO OUR PRODUCTS.

MR. ROONEY. WHAT WOULD YOU ESTIMATE ARE THE NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES IN WISCONSIN MANUFACTURING THAT TYPE OF MATERIAL?

MR. PAUL. WE HAVE NO ONE IN WISCONSIN AT THE PRESENT TIME MANUFACTURING ANY OF THESE MATERIALS. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THESE ARE, YOU MIGHT SAY, LABORATORY TYPE MATERIALS.

I THINK THE EASIEST WAY TO DRAW THE LINE BETWEEN WHAT IS BEING DONE NOW AND WHAT WE WOULD DO, WHAT IS BEING DONE NOW IS REALLY PRE-CONSUMER WASTE, TRIM, THAT COME OFF OF THE TOOLING OR STAMPING PLANTS AT THE END OF A CARTON FACTORY, ALL OF THE MATERIALS THEY CHOP OUT, THE CORNERS WHEN THEY FOLD UP A BOX, AND THAT IS NOW BEING HANDLED BY THOSE DEALERS.

WE WOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH THAT. WE ARE TALKING POST-CONSUMER WASTE, AFTER THE CONSUMER GETS RID OF IT. OUR ENTIRE SYSTEM WAS DEVELOPED ON WHAT WE CALL A ONE-CAN SYSTEM. YOU CAN PUT IT ALL ION ONE CAN.

WEDON'T ASK FOR IT TO BE SEPARATED, TIN, ALUMINUM, AND EVERYTHING.

BECAUSE WE TAKE IT OUT. THAT TECHNOLOGY IS HERE.

MR. ROONEY. IF THE COMMITTEE WERE TO TAKE A FIELD TRIP TO WISCONSIN WHAT REGION SHOULD WE VISIT AND WHAT PLANT SHALL WE SEE?

MR. PAUL. WE ARE JUST DOING THE ENGINEERING FOR RECYCLE REGION 1. WE DO NOT HAVE ONE IN OPERATION ACUTALLY. WE HAVE BEEN WORKING 3 YEARS ON TECHNOLOGY, THE DEVELOPMENT OF PLANS, SPECIFICATIONS, THE BILL, AND GETTING THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE. NOW WE ARE WAITING FOR THE SUPREME COURT TO DETERMINE THE CONSTITUTIONALITY SO WE CAN SECURE OUR BONDING. THE PEOPLE FROM NEW YORK TELL US WE CAN'T GET MONEY UNLESS THE CONSTITUTIONALITY IS APPROVED.

STATEMENTS OF KASTEN R AND PAUL A W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AN INNOVATIVE PROGRAM AND LEGISLATION

750415

000073 ASSEMBLY BILL 922 CHAPTER 305, LAWS OF 000073

A REPORT ON THE WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING PROGRAM" 740000

PART 058 OF 63

KASTEN R W REPRESENTATIVE

PAUL A W CHAIRMAN

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AUTHORITY

WI LEGISLATURE

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING TASK FORCE

107762

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MR. ROONEY. WITH THE TREMENDOUS POTENTIAL FOR PROFITS IN THIS FIELD, WHY DOESN'T PRIVATE INDUSTRY GET MORE INVOLVED IN THIS AREA?

MR. PAUL. WELL, I AM NOT SURE. AT SOME PLACE WE HAVE TO PROVE TO INDUSTRY THERE IS GOING TO BE A PROFIT. ONCE THAT IS DONE, I DON'T THINK YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLE WITH PRIVATE INDUSTRY COMING IN. FOR PRIVATE INDUSTRY TO COME IN AND TAKE GARBAGE, WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN DONE ON A LARGE-SCALE AND MAKE A FILLER BOARD OUT OF IT OR HARDBOARD OR SOMETHING OF THAT TYPE, THEN THAT IS A PROBLEM.

NOW, I DON'T THINK WE WILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE THAT WOULD TAKE THE NEWSPRINT, AND THAT HAS BEEN DONE, AND THERE ARE THREE LARGE DE-INKING PLANTS NOW -- ONE IN NEW JERSEY, ONE IN ILLINOIS, AND ONE IN CALIFORNIA IN WHICH THEY TAKE THE NEWSPRINT AND DE-INK IT, PUT IT THROUGH A BEATER, PUT IT BACK ON THE SCREEN AND MAKE NEWSPRINT OUT OF IT. WE ARE NOW SURVEYING EVERY NEWSPAPER IN THE STATE TO FIND OUT WHAT PAPER THEY USE AND WHAT PERCENT WE CAN USE A RECYCLED PAPER.

MR. KASTEN. I WOULD LIKE TO RESPOND AS TO HWY WE DON'T HAVE MORE PEOPLE IN THESE BUSINESSES.

MR. ROONEY. NOT THAT BUSINESS.

MR. KASTEN. WELL, IN THE RECYCLING BUSINESS.

THE PEOPLE THAT WERE MAKING PRODUCTS FROM RECYCLED MATERIALS, IF THEY WERE GOING TO INVEST A NUMBER OF DOLLARS IN A PLANT, HAD TO BE ASSURED OF A SOURCE OF SUPPLY. THEY HAD TO KNOW, IN OTHER WORDS, THAT THE RAW MATERIALS THEY WERE GOING TO USE WAS GOING TO COME TO THEM ON A REGULAR BASIS AT A PRICE THEY COULD DEPEND ON UP UNTIL NOW THERE HAS BEEN NO ASSURANCE OF THAT.

WHAT WE HOPE TO BE DOING WITH THE STATE OF WISCONSIN RECYCLING AUTHORITY IS PUTTING TOGETHER THE STREAM, SO TERE WILL BE A DEPENDABLE SOURCE OF SUPPLY OF RAW MATERIAL, SO THAT THESE PEOPLE CAN GO AHEAD AND MAKE THEIR CAPITAL INVESTMENTS.

MR. PAUL. MR. CHAIRMAN, WE HAD COMPANIES WHO CAME TO US AND WE WENT TO MANY OF THE LARGE INDUSTRIES IN THE STATE THAT WE THOUGHT MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN OUR END PRODUCT. THEY SAID THAT THEY WOULD NOT CONTRACT WITH A CITY OF COUNTY OR ANY OTHER AGENCY UNLESS THERE WAS A STATE AUTHORIZED AND DEVELOPED AGENCY THAT HAD AUTHORITY TO CONTROL SOLID WASTE. THAT IS WHY IN WISCONSIN WE ARE MAKING OUR BILL MANDATORY.

MR. ROONEY. HOW DO THE PEOPLE IN WISCONSIN FEEL ABOUT BANNING THE CAN, OR BANNING THE NONRETURNABLE BOTTLE?

MR. PAUL. WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS QUITE DIVIDED. THERE IS A VERY STRONG SEGMENT THAT DO NOT WANT ANY PART OF IT.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, SENATOR PROXMIRE RECENTLY MADE A SURVEY OF HIS CONSTITUENCY IN WISCONSIN AND ONE OF THE QUESTIONS HE ASKED WAS, "DO YOU THINK THERE IS TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE NOW?" AND 73 PERCENT OF THEM SAID, "YES."

I WOULD SAY IF YOU TOOK A VOTE TODAY, REFERENDUM, IT WOULD BE DEFEATED BY A LARGE MARGIN. THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE THAT ARE BOISTEROUS, SCREAMING FOR "BANNING THE CAN."

I DON'T SEE FRANKLY WHAT CAN BE GAINED BY THAT BECAUSE A CAN IS PART OF A SOLID WASTE AND YOU CAN RECOVER THE CAN VERY READILY AND EASILY BE MAGNETIC SEPARATION AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF COMPANIES AROUND THE COUNTRY THAT TAKE THE CAN, DETIN IT, AND SELL THE IRON BACK TO THE MILL.

AMERICAN CAN HAS BEEN DOING THAT THROUGH THEIR OPERATION IN NEW JERSEY NOW FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS.

STATEMENTS OF KASTEN R AND PAUL A W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AN INNOVATIVE PROGRAM AND LEGISLATION

750415

000073 ASSEMBLY BILL 922 CHAPTER 305, LAWS OF 000073

A REPORT ON THE WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING PROGRAM" 740000

PART 059 OF 63

KASTEN R W REPRESENTATIVE

PAUL A W CHAIRMAN

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AUTHORITY

WI LEGISLATURE

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING TASK FORCE

107763

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TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU EVER VISITED TAHT PLANT UP NEAR ELIZABETH, N.J., AND IF YOU ARE EVER IN THAT AREA YOU SHOULD VISIT IT BECAUSE IT IS A FANTASTIC OPERATION.

MR. ROONEY. ARE YOU SAYING SENATOR PROXMIRE TOOK A POLL IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN AND 73 PERCENT OF THE POEPLE HE POLLED WERE AGAINST BANNING THE CAN?

MR. PAUL. NO, NO. I SAID THAT WHEN HE TOOK HIS POLL, HE ASKED THE QUESTION" "WAS THERE TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE," AND I THINK 73 PERCENT SAID THEY THOUGHT THERE WAS.

MR. ROONEY. SUCH SURVEY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BANNING THE CAN, IS IT CORRECT?

MR. PAUL. MY POINT IS PEOPLE WHO WERE AGAINST BANNING OF THE CAN ARE OF THAT SAME MIND.

I BELIEVE IF YOU TOOK A REFERENDUM OF WISCONSIN, IT WOULD TURN OUT, MAYBE NOT THAT HIGH, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE IN A REFERENDUM OF THAT TYPE WOULD PASS IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN.

MR. ROONEY. I HAVE ASKED THIS QUESTION BEFORE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WITNESSES AND PERHAPS YOU MIGHT WANT TO COMMENT ON IT. WERE WE TO PHASE OUT LANDFILLS EXCEPT FOR THOSE WASTES THAT CANNOT BE RECYCLED OF FROM WHICH ENERGY CANNOT BE RECOVERED, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A MARKET WOULD BE CREATED FOR RECYCLED MATERIALS?

MR. PAUL. YES, THERE WOULD BE, BUT IT WOULD BE A NUMBER OF YEARS TO DEVELOP IT. IT WOULD BE FAR LONGER THAN I THINK WE CAN WAIT, BECAUSE WHEN YOU CONSIDER TODAY WE IMPORT, WHAT, 55 PERCNET OFOUR IRON ORE AND 98 PERCENT OF BAUXITE AND MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF IT AND USE IF ONCE AND BURY IT IN THE GROUND, THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE AND WE OUGHT TO PUT A STOP TTO THAT WASTE.

WE ADOPTED EARLIER IN THE PROGRAM A SLOGAN, "WASTE NOT AND WANT NOT." I BELIEVE WE WILL FACE A SITUATION AS THE COUNTRY HAS WITH OIL IN A FEW YEARS IF WE DON'T STOP THIS WASTE.

AS YOU KNOW, FERROUS METAL, YOU CAN MELT IT DOWN OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND IT NEVER LOSES ANY OF ITS VALUE. PAPER, EACH TIME YOU USE IT, YOU SHORTEN THE FIBER AND YOU DO REDUCE TO SOME EXTENT THE USEFULNESS OF THATPAPER, BUT THEN WHEN IT GETS TO THAT POINT YOU CAN ALSO USE IT FOR FUEL.

MR. ROONEY. MR. SANTINI.

MR. SANTINI. THANK YOU. MR. CHAIRMAN.

WASN'T THE WISCONSIN STATE LEGISLATURE, AND PERHAPS YOU HAD AN ACTIVE INVOLVEMENT IN IT. REPRESENTATIVE KASTEN,DID THEY CONSIDER THE BOTTLE BILL, BAN THE BOTTLE, BAN THE CAN LEGISLATION, AND IT WAS REJECTED IN THE STATE LEGISLATIVE BODY, WAS IT NOT?

MR. KASTEN. MR. SANTINI, WE HAVE HAD BAN THE CAN LEGISLATION IN WISCONSIN, I WOULD SAY, FOR TWO OR MAYBE THREE LEGISLATIVE SESSIONS. IT HAS BEEN DEFEATED OR STOPPED OR INTEREST WAS LOST IN IT, USUALLY IN COMMITTEES.

I THINK IN ONE CASE IT MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN TO ONE HOUSE OF THE LEGISLATURE AND DEFEATED THERE. BUT THAT IS A NEGATIVE APPROACH TO THIS WHOLE THING. AND THERE ARE ONE OR TWO BAN THE CAN BILLS IN WISCONSIN RIGHT NOW.

BUT WHAT WE ARE TALING ABOUT HERE IS BEING ABLE TO TAKE THE CAN AND EVERYTHING ELSE AND USING IT AND MAKE MONEY ON IT AND, IN FACT, SUPPORT A WHOLE SYSTEM OF SOLID WASTE RECOVERY BY RECYCLING SOLID WASTE.

STATEMENTS OF KASTEN R AND PAUL A W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AN INNOVATIVE PROGRAM AND LEGISLATION

750415

000073 ASSEMBLY BILL 922 CHAPTER 305, LAWS OF 000073

A REPORT ON THE WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING PROGRAM" 740000

PART 060 OF 63

KASTEN R W REPRESENTATIVE

PAUL A W CHAIRMAN

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AUTHORITY

WI LEGISLATURE

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING TASK FORCE

107764

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HOUSE

I THINK IF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR I THINK IF ANY STATE ADOPTS RESTRICTIVE BAN THE CAN KINDS OF LEGISLATION, IT IS BECAUSE PEOPLE, POLITICIANS LIKE MYSELF, END UP VOTING FOR A CATCHWORD OR PHRASE AND SOMEBODY SAYS, "THIS IS WHAT THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS WANT," AND WE ARE ALL AFRAID TO SAY IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. IT DOES NOT MAKE ONE BIT OF SENSE FROM OUR COUNTRY'S POSITION OF UTILIZING OUR SCARCE RESOURCES.

SUCH BILLS HAVE BEEN PROPOSED IN WISCONSIN AND ARE THERE NOW. I WOULD GIVE THEM LESS THAN A 50-PERCENT CHANCE OF PASSING NOW, BUT I THINK IT IS INCUMBENT UPON US AS REPRESENTATIVES IN GOVERNMENT TO COME UP WITH POSITIVE ALTERNATIVES THAT DO MAKE SENSE RATHER THAN TO VOTE FOR CATCHY PHRASES.

MR. SANTINI. HAVE YOU BEEN ON THE CONSTITUTION IMPAIRMENT YOU SUGGESTED EXISTED TO THE ENACTMENT IN WISCONSIN OF YOUR SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AUTHORITY? WHAT IS THE CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUE CONCERNED THERE?

MR. PAUL. WELL, THIS IS A VERY UNIQUE THINGS AND WHEN THE GOVERNOR SIGNED THE BILL, HE SAID IT WAS LANDMARK LEGISLATION. IT CERTAINLY IS, BECAUSE, FOR INSTANCE, WE HAVE A COMPULSORY FEATURE.

WE DON'T PAY TAXES, THAT IS THE AUTHORITY WILLNOT PAY TAXES, BUT WE PAY SERVICE FEES IN LIEU OF TAXES. WE ARE ALLOWED TO DO OUR OWN FINANCING AND OUR OWN BONDING. WE CAN TAKE OVER ANY PRESENT RECYCLING FACILITY.

THOSE THINGS ARE ALL UNIQUE TO WISCONSIN. NOTHING LIKE THAT WAS EVER INCLUDED IN WISCONSIN LAW BEFORE.

MR. SANTINI. SO THE CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUE IS BETWEEN YOUR STATE, CONSTITUTION AND THE LEGISLATIVE PROPRIETY OF CREATING THISKIND OF ENTITY WITHIN THE STATE?

MR. PAUL. THE LAW THAT WAS PASSED; THAT IS CORRECT.

MR. SANTINI. BUT THERE WAS NO FEDERAL CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUE HERE?

MR. PAUL. NO, I AM SORRY IF WE MISLED YOU.

MR. KASTEN. PRIMARILY IT HAD TO DO WITH THE FINANCING, GOOD FAITH AND CREDIT OF THE STATE WITH THE BONDS THEY INTED TO USE, WHICH IS A FINANCIAL QUESTION.

MR. PAUL. WE COULD HAVE PROCEEDED AND IN THE BILL THE STATE WAS TO GIVE AUTHORITY $500,000 FOR OUR FIRST 2 YEARS OF OPERATION.

WE COULD PROBABLY HAVE PROCEEDED ON THAT BASIS, BUT WHEN WE WENT TO BONDING HOUSES THEY SAID IF THE CONSTITUTIONALITY WAS CLEARED UP WE WOULD HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF SELLING THE BONDS, AND FROM OUR STANDPOINT IT WAS FAR BETTER TO DO IT ON A FRINEDLY BASIS AND ESTABLISH IT THAT WAY THEN TO HAVE 20 PEOPLE AROUND THE STATE SUING ON THE CONSTITUTIONALITY.

I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE ONE FURTHER COMMENT ABOUT THE CAN AND THE RECYCLING. I CAN REMEMBER SO CLEARLY ONE OF THE ELDER REPRESENTATIVES IN THE LEGISLATURE IN MADISON LISTENED TO OUR STORY AND HE SAID, "I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS AREWORRYING ABOUT." HE SAYS IT IS SO SIMPLE.

I SAID, "MAYBE WE LOST 2 YEARS STUDYING IT AND MISSED SOMETHING".

HE SAID, "JUST PASS THE BILL AND EVERY HOUSEWIFE WILL HAVE 12 CANS AND SEPARATE EVERYTHING IN EACH CAN AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE RECYCLING, YOU CAN DO IT FROMTHERE." BUT THAT JUST DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE EITHER.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE COST OF THE RECYCLING TESTIMONY, YOUR RECYCLING PLANTS WILL COST BETWEEN $12,500 TO $15,000 PER TON PER DAY, IN OTHER WORDS, IF IT IS A 1,000 TON-A-DAY PLANT, AND THAT IS ABOUT THE MINIMUM ECONOMICAL SIZE OF PLANTS YOU CAN HAVE, THAT IS GOING TO COST YOU MORE THAN $10 MILLION, MAYBE $15 MILLION. THAT COST WILL BE THE SAME WHETHER YOU HAVE THE CAN IN THE LINE OR NOT.

STATEMENTS OF KASTEN R AND PAUL A W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AN INNOVATIVE PROGRAM AND LEGISLATION

750415

000073 ASSEMBLY BILL 922 CHAPTER 305, LAWS OF 000073

A REPORT ON THE WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING PROGRAM" 740000

PART 061 OF 63

KASTEN R W REPRESENTATIVE

PAUL A W CHAIRMAN

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AUTHORITY

WI LEGISLATURE

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING TASK FORCE

107765

HEARING

TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

IN ADDITION, THE WORST THING TO HANDLE IN THE LINE IS GLASS. THAT IS BECAUSE GLASS GOES THROUGH THE SLIDER AND GETS TO THE AIR CLASSIFIER. AS A MATTER OF FACT, IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A LARGE VOLUME OF GLASS YOU WILL NEED SHAKER SCREENS AND TRAMMELS IN THE LINE WHICH WILL ADD $400,000 OR $500,000 TO THE RECYCLING LINE TO GET THE GLASS OUT. YOU CAN'T HAVE THE GLASS GO INTO THE FUEL FRACTION AND FEED IT INTO THE BOILER.

MOST PEOPLE DONT FEEL PAPER IS ABRASIVE, BUT YOU FEED PAPER THROUGH A LINE PNEUMATICALLY THROUGH A BOILER AND IT WILL WEAR THE ELBORS.

IN ST. LOUIS, THEYFOUND THEY CAN'T MAKE A 90 DEGREE BOND, BUT A LONG SWEEPING BEND TO REDUCE ABRASIVENESS. THEY FOUND THE GLASS WAS SO ABRASIVE IT WAS LIKE SAND-BLASTING THE PIPE AND THEY WENT RIGHT THROUGH THE END OF IT SEVERAL TIMES, SO GLASS IS NOT A WELCOME ITEM IN THE RECYCLING LINE.

MR. ROONEY. MR. PAUL. I HAVE ONE LAST QUESTION.

HOW CAN WE MOVE MORE QUICKLY IN GOVERNMENT TO CREATE MARKETS EXCEPT BY MASSIVE FEDERAL AID WHICH IS MORE GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE? HOW CAN WE GET MORE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THIS PRIVATE SECTOR INVOLVED IN THIS AREA?

MR. PAUL. I HATE TO SEE MASSIVE GOVERNMENTAL AID FOR ANYTHING BECAUSE I THINK IT REDUCES INITIATIVE OF PEOPLE IN PRIVATE ENTERPRISE AND SURELY THAT IS WHAT THE COUNTRY WAS BUILT ON.

I THINK,THROUGH, WE MUST SOMEHOW FIND MONEY TO GO FROM PROTOTYPE JOBS, THE LABORATORY-TYPE JOBS WE HAVE DONE.

MAY I TAKE A MOMENT?

MR. ROONEY. YOU CAN HAVE ALL THE TIME YOU NEED.

MR. PAUL. I AM NOT SURE YOU ARE ACQUAINTED WITH AN AMMUNITION PLANT, BUT THERE IS A LARGE AMMUNITION AND POWDER PLANT IN BARABOO, WIS., I UNDERSTAND THE LARGEST IN THE WORLD. THEY MAKE BALL POWDER THERE AND MAKE IT BY THE BATCH SYSTEM GOING FROM ONE BATCH TO THE NEXT. IT IS A MANUAL OPERATION AND THEY HAVE 8,700 ACRES, OR 7,800 ACRES RATHERIN THAT FACILITY. AT ONE TIME THEY EMPLOYED BETWEEN 12,000 AND 15,000 PEOPLE, SO YOU CAN IMAGINE THE LARGENESS OF THE PLANT.

NOW, OLIN HAD BEEN OPERATING THAT FACILITY. OLIN INDUSTRY'S, AND THEY ALSO HAVE A PLANT OF THEIR OWN IN FLORIDA WHERE THEY MAKE POWDER FOR SHOTGUN SHELLS AND RIFLE BUTTLETS.

THEY HAVE FOUND A NEW WAY NOW OF MAKING BALL POWDER, WHICH IS A CONTINUOUS PROCESS, SO YOU ELIMINATE MUCH OF THE NECESSITY OF THAT FACILITY, BUT WANT TO KEEP IT IN A STANDBY.

THEY HAVE FANTASTIC CAPACITY. ONE BUILDING HAS 38 TANKS OF 22,500 GALLONS EACH. WHEN I HEARD ABOUT IT, READ ABOUT IT IN THE PAPERS, IT RANGE A BELL AND I SAID, MAYBE THAT IS THE PLACE THAT WE CAN PRODUCE METHANE GAS FROM GARBAGE. IF NOT, THAT MAY BE THE ETHYL ALCOHOL, INDUSTRIAL ALCOHOL, EITHER OF WHICH CAN BE ADDED TO THE GASOLINE AND FROM THE TESTS MADE AT MIT AND SAN DIEGO, YOU ADD 15 PERCENT TO GASOLINE IT INCREASES THE MILEAGE 25 PERCENT.

IF YOU DIDN'T WANT TO DO THAT, YOU COULD GO THE OTHER ROUTE TO AMONIA -- THAT IS, FERTILIZER -- AND, AS YOU KNOW, THE PRICE OF FERTILIZER TRIPLED THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS BECAUSE OF THE PRICE OF NATRUAL GAS AND IMPORTED OIL.

STATEMENTS OF KASTEN R AND PAUL A W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AN INNOVATIVE PROGRAM AND LEGISLATION

750415

000073 ASSEMBLY BILL 922 CHAPTER 305, LAWS OF 000073

A REPORT ON THE WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING PROGRAM" 740000

PART 062 OF 63

KASTEN R W REPRESENTATIVE

PAUL A W CHAIRMAN

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING AUTHORITY

WI LEGISLATURE

WI SOLID WASTE RECYCLING TASK FORCE

107766

HEARING

TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

TO MAKE AMMONIA YOU TAKE ALL OF THE AGRICULTURAL WASTE, MUNICIPAL SEWAGE, SLUDGE AND MUNICIPAL SOLID WASTE AND PUT IT ALL INTO THESE TANKS AND FERMENT IT AND MAKE IT INTO ALCOHOL OR AMMONIA AND PUT IT BACK ON THE LAND, THEN YOUHAVE A CYCLE GOING.

THE OTHER WAY IS, YOU CAN MAKE IT INTO GAS OR FUEL AND I AM SURE IT IS TRANSPORTABLE AND WE WOULD HAVE NO TROUBLE AS FAR AS THE GOVERNOR SIGNING A BILL TO REQUIRE THAT ALL CARS IN THE STATE USE IT RATHER THAN OIL OR GASOLINE.

SO, WE LOOKED AT THAT FEASIBILITY. I HAVE TAKEN PEOPLE, LIKE DR. KLASS, WHO IS IN THE ILLINOIS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY AND AN EXPERT IN THIS FIELD, HE HAS ACTUALLY, IN HIS OWN FACILITY, AND I HAVE BEEN THERE TO SEE IT A (COPY ILLEGIBLE) TANK IN WHICH THEY MADE METHANE OUT OF GARBAGE. THIS IS ON A SMALL SCALE, 100 LITERS IS A TANK ONLY THAT HIGH. YOU HAVE TO DO IT NOW IN HUGE TANKS.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, THEY DEVISED A PLANT FOR A LARGE CITY WHICHIS 115 FEET ACROSS AND 10 FEET DEEP AND THAT IS MILLIONS OF GALLONS.

SOMEPLACE ALONG THE LINE WE HAVE TO BUILD ONE OF THESE FACILITIES TO PROVE ITS FEASIBILITY IN THIS AREA. WE ARE GOING TO HAVE FAILURES BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE BEEN IN INDUSTRY, ABOUT 5 PERCENT OF THE RESEARCH MONEY PRODUCES A PRODUCT.

I THINK WE WILL HAVE FAILURES BEFORE WE FIND MARKETS FOR THIS MATERIAL, THAT IS, REAL GOOD MARKETS. BUT SOME OF THESE THINGS WE HAVE TO TRY. I BELIEVE WE HAVE TO. YOU WANT TO KNOW, "HOW CAN WE DO IT FASTER?". I WOULD SAY THAT IS A FAST WAY.

FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU WERE WILLING AND COULD FINANCE TAKING THIS FILLER BOARD I HAVE HERE FROM ITS PRESENT STAGE INTO A REASONABLE PRODUCTION METHOD AND PROVE THE ECONOMICS OF IT, WE WOULD HAVE A CONTRACT FOR A PLANT WITHIN MONTHS IN WISCONSIN. THAT PLANT WOULD PROBABLY BE A $30 MILLION INVESTMENT AND EMPLOY SOME 300 PEOPLE.

WE ALSO HAVE PEOPLE LOOKIONG AT A MINIMILL IN WISCONSIN TO USE FOR FERROUS METAL WE RECOVER IN THIS LINE. WE HAVE THREE BIDDERS ALREADY THAT WILL BID ONTHE TIN CANS WE SEPARATE FROM THE LINE. SO, WE ARE AT THE POINT, BUT HAVE RUN OUT OF MONEY.

THE STATE WILL PUT PROBABLY $300,000 INTO THIS ALL ON THEIR OWN AND I MIGHT ALSO SAY THAT WE, JUST TODAY, BOB HANDED ME A NOTE, WHICH CONFIRMS THE FACT THAT EPA IN CHICAGO HAVE GIVEN US $75,000 TO HELP DEVELOP THE PLANS FOR OUR REGION 1, WHICH THEY WERE VERY MUCH IMPRESSED WITH.

MR. ROONEY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CONGRESSMAN KASTEN AND MR. PAUL, AND I COMMEND YOU MR. PAUL, FOR YOUR DEDICATION TO YOUR STATE AND I THINK WE NEED MORE PEOPLE IN THIS GREAT COUNTRY OF OURS LIKE YOURSELF WHO ARE WILLING TO SPEND SO MUCH TIME IN RETIREMENT YEARS AND I COMMEND YOU FOR THE SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTIONS YOU HAVE MADE TO THE GREAT STATE OF WISCONSIN, AND THANK YOU.

THE NEXT WITNESS WILL BE MR. ROGER SANT, ASSISTNAT ADMINISTRATOR FOR CONSERVATION AND ENVIRONMENT, FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION WASHINGTON, D.C.

MR. SANTINI (PRESIDING). PROCEED.

STATCMENT OF SANT R W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

750415

PART 001 OF 9

SANT R W ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION AND ENVIRONMENT

FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATON WASHINGTON, DC

107768

HEARINGS

TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

MR. SANT. THANK YOU. MR. CHAIRMAN. I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS WITH YOU H.R. 5487 AND H.R. 406. PARTICULARLY THE ENERGY CONSERVATION ASPECTS OF SOLID WASTE.

WITH YOUR PERMI-SION, I WOULD LIKE TO SUMMARIZE MY PREPARED MARKS AND SUBMIT THE TOTAL TESTIMONY FOR THE RECORD.

MR. SANTINI, YES.

MR. SANT. MY OFFICE IS CONCERNED WITH ENERGY CONSERVATION IN ALL SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY AND FOR ALL END USES. WE ARE PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN SOLID WASTE MANAGEMENT SINCE ENERGY AMONG OTHER RESOURCES IS WASTED EVERY TIME MATERIALS ARE UNNECESSARILY DISCARDED OR USED IN CARELESS OR FRIVOLOUS WAYS SUCH AS OVERPACKAGING.

IF WE CAN REDUCE THE GENERATION OF SOLIDWASTE MATERIALS BY RECYCLING MATERIALS, RECOVERING ENERGY CONTENT, OR REDUCING WASTE AT THE SOURCETHEN WE CAN REDUCE CONSUMPTION OF BOTH MATERIAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY REQUIRED FOR EXTRACTION AND MANUFACTURE.

AT PRESENT ENERGY RECOVERY APPEARS TO BE FEASIBLE ONLY IN MORE DENSELY POPULATED AREAS WHERE ECONOMIES OF SCALE CAN BE ACHIEVED. TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT OF THE NATION'S WASTE IS CONCENTRATED IN 243 CITIES HAVING POPULATIONS IN EXCESS OF 55,000 THE MINIMUM THAT IS NECESSARY TO MAKE RESOURCE RECOVERY ECONOMICALLY ATTRACTIVE GIVEN CURRENT DUMP FEES AND FUEL COSTS.

USING 1971 DATA ON THESE CITIES THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HAS ESTIMATED THAT THE EQUIVALENT OF 473,000 BARRELS OF OIL PER DAY COULD BE SAVED THROUGH ENERGY RECOVERY-393,000 BARRELS PER DAY-AND MATERIALS RECYCLING-80,000 BARRELS PER DAY. OF COURSE THIS ESTIMATE ASSUMES THAT PRACTICAL TECHNOLOGIES CAN BE EMPLOYED TO UTILIZE THE RECOVERED AND RECYCLED PRODUCTS.

NOW, I WILL TURN TO SPECIFIC LEGISLATION THE COMMITTEE IS CONSIDERING H.R. 406 WOULD REQUIRE A MANDATORY DEPOSIT ON ALL SOFT DRINK AND BEER CONTAINERS.

BASED ON DATA GENERATED IN A RECENT ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY STUDY IT HAS BEEN ESTIMATED THAT APPROXIMATELY 0.2 QUADRILLION BRITISH THERMAL UNITS PER YEAR WOULD BE SAVED IF ONE WAY BEVERAGE CONTAINERS WERE ELIMINATED.

IN OUR OPINION THE WORK THAT HAS BEEN DONE TO DATE EVALUATING THE IMPACT OF CONTAINERS LEGISLATION NEEDS TO BE EXTENDED. THIS EXTENSION SHOULD INCLUDE THE IMPACT OF NEW TECHNOLOGY IN CONTAINER PRODUCTION THE POSSIBILITY THAT NOT ALL ONE-WAY CONTAINERS WILL BE ELIMINATED ECONOMIC IMPACT ON RESOURCES RECOVERY AND THE ECONOMIC REQUIREMENTS FOR INDUSTRIAL CHANGEOVER.

THEREFORE THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION HAS CONTRACTED WITH RESEARCH TRIANGLE INSTITUTE TO ANALYZE A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS RELATING TO THIS LEGISLATION. BECAUSE OF THE DIVERSITY OF OPINION ON THE ISSUE ONE SPECIFIC TASK OF THE STUDY WILL BE TO CIRCULATE A DRAFT VERSION OF THE FINAL REPORT TO INTERESTED PARTIES-INDUSTRY, ENVIRONMENTAL AND CONSUMER GROUPS-FOR CRITICAL REVIEW.

ALL COMMENTS WILL BE BOUND WITH THE REPORT. THUS THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION HOPES TO HAVE IN ONE DOCUMENT ALL SHADES OF OPINION ON WHICH TO BASE ITS RECOMMENDATIONS. IT IS ANTICIPATED THAT THE REPORT WILL BE COMPLETED AND REVIEWED BY MID-AUGUST 1975.

STATCMENT OF SANT R W

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PART 002 OF 9

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FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATON WASHINGTON, DC

107769

HEARINGS

TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

AT THAT TIME THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION WILL BE IN A MORE KNOWLEDGABLE POSITION TO COMMENT ON LEGISLATION DIRECTED AT THE NON-RETURNABLE CONTAINER. THEREFORE, WE PREFER NOT TO INDICATE SUPPORT OR NONSUPPORT OF H.R. 406 AT THIS TIME.

WITH RESPECT TO H.R. 5487 THE WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975 WE WISH TO INDICATE THE FOLLOWING CONCERNS:

ONE: WOULD AN AUTHORIZATION OF $440 MILLION IN GRANTS AND LOANS AND LOANS MATERIALLY INCREASE THE ENERGY CONSERVED? REALIZATION OF THE TOTAL ENERGY POTENTIAL WOULD REQUIRE PRIVATE AND PIBLIC INVESTMENT OF $5 TO $10 BILLION.

TWO: WHAT MARKETING CONSIDERATIONS SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT TO ASSURE THAT STUDIES AND GRANTS HAVE REALISTICALLY ADDRESSED THE PRODUCTIVE USE OF THE ENERGY AND MATERIALS RECOVERED?

THREE: WHAT, IF ANY INSTITUTIONAL REGULATORY AND ECONOMIC BARRIERS TO THE REUSE OF RECYCLED MATERIALS NEED TO BE ELIMINATED?

FOUR: WHAT METHODS IF ANY SHOULD BE EMPLOYED TO PROTECT MARKETS FOR THE LOW GRADE MATERIALS WHICH RESULT FROM WASTE ENERGY RECOVERY?

FIVE: HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL ATTENTION MUST BE GIVEN TO THE DEVELOPMENT AND PROVING OF THE TECHNOLOGY FOR WASTE ENERGY RECOVERY?

PROGRAMS WHICH INCLUDE ENERGY COST BENEFIT ANALYSES ARE A NECESSITY FOR LONGRANGE DECISIONMAKING BY THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND GOVERNMENTS.

IMPLICIT IN THESE CONCERNS IS LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHETHER IT IS NECESSARY TO INVEST FEDERAL MONEY IN ENERGY RECOVERY FACILITIES IN LIGHT OF THE INCREASING COSTS OF ENERGY AND WASTE DISPOSAL. A NUMBER OF FACILITIES HAVE BEEN OR ARE BEING PLANNED TO BE BUILT USING STRICTLY PRIVATE FINANCING.

IN TOTAL BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMIC TECHNICAL AND INSTITUTIONAL RISKS AT THIS TIME ASSOCIATED WITH RESOURCE RECOVERY IT IS NOT CLEAR WHAT KIND AND HOW MUCH. IF ANY FEDERAL SUBSIDIES WILL BE REQUIRED TO INCREASE SIGNIFICANTLY THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY SAVED OR RECOVERED FROM THE SOLID WASTE STREAM.

WHILE WE RECOGNIZE THAT H.R.5487 IS PRIMARILY CONCERNED WITH WASTE MANAGEMENT WE FEEL THAT TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENTS AND MARKETING STRATEGIES HAVE IMPORTANT IMPLICATIONS FOR BOTH SOLID WASTE AND ENERGY.

WE STRONGLY SUPPORT ALL STUDIES CALLED FOR BY THE BILL WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE STUDY CALLED FOR BY SECTION 276-6-C DEALING WITH RECOVERY AND USE OF METHANE FROM RCSIDENTIAL WASTE VENT STACKS WHICH WE FEEL IS UNNECESSARY.

WE BELIEVE THAT AN ADDITIONAL STUDY WHICH WOULD FOCUS ON THE IMPACT OF GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES SHOULD BE PERFORMED BEFORE SUBSTANCIAL SUMS OF FEDERAL MONEY ARE EXPENDED ON ENERGY RECOVERY FROM SOLID WASTE.

FINALLY WE RECOGNIZE THAT THE MAIN EMPHASIS OF THE BILL IS DEVELOPING AN ENVIRONMENTALLY ACCEPTABLE WAY OF DISPOSING OF THE NATION'S SOLID WASTE. ON THIS SUBJECT WE DEFER TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY.

I WILL BE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS.

(MR. SANT'S PREPARED STATEMENT FOLLOWS:)

STATCMENT OF SANT R W

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PART 003 OF 9

SANT R W ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION AND ENVIRONMENT

FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATON WASHINGTON, DC

107770

HEARINGS

TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

STATEMENT OF ROGER W. SANT. ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION AND ENVIRONMENT, FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION

MR. CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND COMMERCE, I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO APPEAR BEFORE YOU TODAY TO DISCUSS H.R.5487, H.R.406 AND THE ENERGY CONSERVATION ASPECTS OF SOLID WASTE.

BEFORE I DISCUSS THESE SUBJECTS IN DETAIL, HOWEVER, I WOULD LIKE TO PROVIDE A BRIEF OVERVIEW OF THE NATION'S ENERGY DILEMMA AND A SUMMARY OF THE PRESIDENT'S LEGISLATIVE INITIATIVES.

LAST YEAR'S OIL EMBARGO DEMONSTRATED OUR NATION'S VULNERABILITY TO FOREIGN SUPPLY CUTOFFS. THE EMBARGO WAS ONE RESULT OF YEARS OF ENERGY NEGLECT WHICH LEFT OUR ECONOMY AND ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH OTHER NATIONS SUBJECT TO FOREIGN INFLUENCE, SUDDEN DISRUPTION AND DEVASTATING PRICE INCREASES.

THE PROBLEM CAN BE SEEN BY EXAMINING SEVERAL TRENDS IN THE NATIONS ENERGY SITUATION.

FIRST AND OF FUNDAMENTAL CONCERN TO US HERE TODAY IS THAT THE NATION'S DEMAND FOR ENERGY HAS BEEN GROWING AT A RATE OF 4.5 PERCENT ANNUALLY FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS. DEMAND FOR PETROLEUM PRODUCTS HAS INCREASED AT AN EVEN MORE ALARMING RATE.

SECOND, OUR DOMESTIC SUPPLIES OF PETROEUM AND OTHER FUELS HAVE NOT KEPT PACE WITH THE INCREASING DEMAND. IN FACT DOMESTIC PRODUCTION OF CRUDE OIL PEAKED PRIOR TO 1970 AND HAS BEEN DECLINING EVER SINCE.

THIRD, AND PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANTLY THE GAP BETWEEN DOMESTIC DEMAND FOR ENERGY AND DOMESTIC SUPPLIES HAS BEEN FILLED BY AN INCREASING RELIANCE ON IMPORTED PETROLEUM. IN 1960, THE UNITED STATES IMPORTED ONLY 15% OF ITS PETROLEUM REQUIREMENTS. BY 1973, THIS FIGURE HAD GROWN TO 35 PERCENT OR 6 MILLION BARRELS PER DAY. AND IN 1974, EVEN ACCOUNTING FOR THE REDUCED CONSUMPTION CAUSED BY THE EMBARGO AND LAST YEAR'S PRICE INCREASES, OUR IMPORTS GREW TO 38 PERCENT OF OUR TOTAL CONSUMPTION, OR 6.4 MILLION BARRELS PER DAY. IF THIS TREND CONTINUES UNALTERED, OUR PROJECTIONS INDICATE THAT BY 1985 WE WILL IMPORT UP TO 12.7 MILLION BARRELS PER DAY, OR MORE THAN HALF OUR OIL NEEDS.

CLEARLY, OUR NATION'S DETERIORATING ENERGY SITUATION REQUIRES BROAD, DECISIVE AND PROMPT GOVERNMENT ACTION TO PREVENT CONTINUED EROSION OF OUR ECONOMY AND NATIONAL SECURITY. REDUCING OUR VULNERABILITY TO SUPPLY INTERRUPTION AND PRICE MANIPULATION MUST BE GIVEN THE HIGHEST PRIORITY.

THE PRESIDENT HAS PRESCRIBED TOUGH ACTION TO CURE OUR ENERGY ILLS. HE HAS OUTLINED THREE TIME PHASED GOALS.

ONE: IN THE SHORT-TERM, A CUT IN OUR OIL IMPORTS OF ONE MILLION BARRELS PER DAY BY THE END OF THIS YEAR AND OF TWO MILLION BARRELS PER DAY BY THE END OF 1977.

TWO: BY 1985, IMPORTS OF NO MORE THAN THREE TO FIVE MILLION BARRELS PER DAY- AND THE CAPABILITY TO IMMEDIATELY REPLACE THAT AMOUNT FROM STORAGE AND STANDBY MEASURES IN THE EVENT OF A SUPPLY DISRUPTION.

THREE: ACCELERATED DEVELOPMENT OF ENERGY TECHNOLOGY AND RESOURCES SO THAT THE UNITED STATES CAN MEET A SIGNIFICANT SHARE OF THE ENERGY NEEDS OF THE FREE WORLD BY THE END OF THIS CENTURY.

TO MEET THESE GOALS, THE PRESIDENT HAS PROPOSED SEVERAL ACTIONS THAT WOULD IF IMPLEMENTED SERVE TO COUNTER THE RECENT TREND OF DECLINING DOMESTIC ENERGY PRODUCTION,

IN THE FIRST CRUCIAL YEARS THERE ARE ONLY A LIMITED NUMBER OF ACTIONS THAT CAN INCREASE DOMESTIC SUPPLY. WE MUST DEVELOP AND INCREASE PRODUCTION FROM THE ELK HILLS, CALIFORNIA NAVAL PETROLEUM RESERVE. THE PRESIDENT HAS SUBMITTED LEGISLATION FOR THIS PURPOSE.

THE ADMINISTRATION HAS ALSO SUBMITTED A SET OF COMPREHENSIVE AMENDMENTS TO THE ENERGY SUPPLY AND ENVIRONMENTAL COORDINATION ACT OF 1974 TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF OIL BURNING FACILITIES THAT CAN BE CONVERTED TO COAL IN THE COMING YEARS.

IN ADDITION THE ADMINISTRATION HAS PROPOSED A SERIES OF TAX AND DECONTROL MEASURES. THESE ACTIONS WILL NOT ONLY INCREASE INCENTIVES TO EXPLORE FOR AND DEVELOP NEW ENERGY RESOURCES, BUT WILL ALSO ENCOURAGE GREATER ENERGY CONSERVATION.

FOR THE MID-TERM, THE PRESIDENT HAS REAFFIRMED THE INTENT OF THIS ADMINISTRATION TO MOVE AHEAD WITH AN AGGRESSIVE LEASING PROGRAM IN THOSE AREAS OF THE OUTER CONTINENTAL SHELF WHERE THE ENVIRONMENTAL RISKS ARE JUDGED TO BE ACCEPTABLE. HE HAS ALSO ASKED THE CONGRESS TO AUTHORIZE OIL PRODUCTION FROM THE LARGEST OF THE NATION'S NAVAL PETROLEUM RESERVES. NPR4 IN ALASKA, TO PROVIDEPETROLEUM FOR THE DOMESTIC ECONOMY WITH 20% OR SUCH AMOUNTS AS THE PRESIDENT MAY DETERMINE CARMARKED FOR MILITARY NEEDS AND STRATEGIC STORAGE.

BUT IN ADDITION TO FINDING MORE OIL AND GAS, WE MUST TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OUR MOST ABUNDANT ENERGY RESOURCE, COAL. THE PRESIDENT HAS SUBMITTED SURFACE MINING LEGISLATION AND AN AMENDMENT TO GRANT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PRODUCTION AGENCY AUTHORITY TO SUSPEND EMISSION LIMITATIONS FOR POWER PLANTS UNTIL LOW SULFUR COAL CAN BE OBTAINED OR STACK GAS SCRUBBERS CAN BE INSTALLED.

STATCMENT OF SANT R W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

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PART 004 OF 9

SANT R W ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION AND ENVIRONMENT

FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATON WASHINGTON, DC

107771

HEARINGS

TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

THE ADMINISTRATION IS ALSO SEEKING AN AMENDMENT TO THE CLEAN ACT TO DEAL WITH THE ISSUE OF SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATION OF AIR QUALITY.

FINALLY, THE PRESIDENT HAS PROPOSED LEGISLATION TO ASSIST ELECTRIC UTILITIES THROUGH HIGHER INVESTMENT TAX CREDITS MANDATED REFORMS IN STATE UTILITY COMMISSION PRACTICES, AND OTHER MEASURES. AND TO REJUVENATE OUR DRIVE TOWARD MORE EFFECTIVE USE OF NUCLEAR POWER WE HAVE MARKEDLY INCREASED OUR BUDGET FOR NUCLEAR WASTE DISPOSAL AND FOR CONTINUED IMPROVEMENTS IN SAFEGUARDS.

FOR THE LONG-TERM THE PRESIDENT HAS REAFFIRMED OUR COMMITTMENT TO A STRONG ENERGY RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM AIMED NOT ONLY AT DEVELOPING THE CAPABILITY TO TAP ALL OUR MAJOR DOMESTIC ENERGY RESOURCES BUT ALSO AT IMPROVING THE EFFICIENCY OF ENERGY UTILIZATION IN ALL ASPECTS OF OUR ECONOMY.

IN CONJUNCTION WITH THIS R & D PROGRAM THE PRESIDENT HAS ANNOUNCED A NATIONAL SYNTHETIC FUELS PROGRAM WHICH WILL ENTAIL A PROGRAM OF FEDERAL INCENTIVES DESIGNED TO REDUCE PRICE UNCERTAINTY RAISE CAPITAL AND OVERCOME UNNECESSARY DELAYS IN BRINGING EXISTING OR NEARLY DEVELOPED TECHNOLOGIES INTO COMMERCIAL USE.

ALTHOUGH MUCH OF THESE SUPPLY ACTIONS WILL CONT-IBUTE IN THE ACHIEVEMENT OF ENERGY INDEOENDANCE THEY ARE NOT SUFFICIENT TO DO THE JOB ALONE. THUS, AN ESSENTIAL ELEMENT OF ANY ENERGY STRATEGY AIMED AT REDUCING OUR DEPENDENCE ON IMPORTED PETROLEUM MUST BE POLICIES TO REDUCE OUR GROWING DEMAND FOR ENERGY BY AN AGGRESSIVE ENERGY CONSERVATION PROGRAM.

AS I NOTED EARLIER, THE PRESIDENT HAS PROPOSED SEVERAL TAX AND REGULARATORY ACTIONS WHICH WOULD INCREASE THE PRICE OF ENERGY RELATIVE TO OTHER PRODUCTS IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE MAJOR ENERGY SAVINGS IN THE NEAR-TERM. WE BELIEVE THAT THIS APPROACH POSES THE LEAST DANGER TO OUR ECONOMY AND IS MORE EQUITABLE THAN OTHER PROPOSALS THAT WOULD ACHIEVE COMPARABLE SAVINGS.

WHILE DAMPENING DEMAND THROUGH INCREASES IN THE RELATIVE PRICE OF PETROLEUM PRODUCTS IS THE ONLY MEANS TO ACHIEVE MAJOR SAVINGS IN THE NEAR-TERM -- SHORT OF RESTRICTING SUPPLY -- THERE ARE NUMEROUS OTHER ENERGY CONSERVATION PROGRAMS THAT WE FEEL WILL PRODUCE SIGNIFICANT SAVINGS BEYOND 1977. FOR EXAMPLE, OUR NATION CAN GREATLY IMPROVE THE FUEL ECONOMY OF AUTOMOBILES THE EFFICIENCY OF HOME APPLIANCES, THE THERMAL CHARACTERISTICS OF BUILDINGS AND THE ENERGY EFFICIENCY OF INDUSTRIAL PROCESSES.

THE ADMINISTRATION'S ENERGY PROGRAM INCORPORATES A COMBINATION OF VOLUNTARY AND MANDATORY PROGRAMS DIRECTED AT THE ACHIEVEMENT OF MAJOR ENERGY SAVINGS IN EACH SECTOR OF THE ECONOMY.

THE PRESIDENT HAS RECENTLY ANNOUNCED SIX SPECIFIC ADMINISTRATIVE AND LEGISLATIV- INITIATIVES. THEY ARE:

1 A 40 PERCENT IMPROVEMENT IN THE FUEL ECONOMY OF NEW AUTOMOBILES BY MODEL YEAR 1980. COMMITMENTS TO ACHIEVE THIS GOAL HAVE ALREADY BEEN OBTAINED FROM AUTO MANUFACTURERS. THE PRESIDENT HAS ALSO ANNOUNCED THAT HE WILL SEEK AMENDMENTS TO THE CLEAN AIR ACT TO ACHIEVE A BETTER BALANCE BETWEEN ENVIRONMENTAL AND ENERGY NEEDS (TITLES V AND V1 OF S.594).

2. A TAX CREDIT FOR 15 PERCENT OF THE COST OF INSTALLING INSULATION AND MAKING OTHER ENERGY CONSERVING MODIFICATIONS TO HOMES.

3. A WINTERIZATION ASSISTANCE PROGRAM TO INSTALL INSULATION WEATHER-STRIPPING AND CAULKING IN HOMES OF INDIVIDUALS (TITLE XI OF S.594).

4. A MANDATORY PROGRAM TO DEVELOP AND ENSURE THE ADOPTION OF ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR ALL NEW RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS (TITLE X OF S.594).

5. A MANDATORY MOTOR VEHICLE AND APPLIANCE ENERGY LABELING PROGRAM (TITLE XII OF S.594): AND

6. A VOLUNTARY APPLIANCE EFFICIENCY IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM WHICH HAS A GOAL OF OBTAINING THE COMMITMENT OF APPLIANCE MANUFACTURERS TO ACHIEVING AN AVERAGE 20 PERCENT IMPROVEMENT BY 1980.

THESE NEW INITIATIVES WILL COMPLEMENT THE ENERGY CON-ERVATION PROGRAMS ALREADY BEING IMPLEMENTED BY THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION. WE BELIEVE THAT COMBINING FEDERAL EFFORTS TO IMPROVE THE EFFICIENCY OF ENERGY USE IN NEW BUILDINGS NEW AUTOMOBILES AND NEW APPLIANCES WITH ON-GOING VOLUNTARY PROGRAMS SUPPORTED BY SELECTED INCENTIVES TO ENCOURAGE IMMEDIATE ENERGY CONSERVATION WILL BE THE MOST E-FECTIVE MEANS OF ACHIEVING MAJOR ENERGY SAVINGS.

STATCMENT OF SANT R W

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PART 005 OF 9

SANT R W ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION AND ENVIRONMENT

FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATON WASHINGTON, DC

107772

HEARINGS

TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

MY OFFICE IS CONCERNED WITH ENERGY CONSERVATION IN ALL SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY AND FOR ALL END USES. WE ARE PARTICULARLY INTERESTED TN SOLID WASTE MANAGEMENT SINCE ENERGY, AMONG OTHER RESOURCES IS WASTED EVERY TIME MATERIALS ARE UNNECESSARILY DISCARDED OR USED IN CARELESS OR FRIVULOUS WAYS SUCH AS OVERPACKAGING. IF WE CAN REDUCE THE GENERATION OF SOLID WASTE MATERIALS BY RECYCLING MATERIALS RECOVERING ENERGY CONTENT, OR REDUCING WASTE AT THE SOURCE, THEN WE CAN REDUCE CONSUMPTION OF BOTH MATERIAL RESOURCES AND ENERGY REQUIRED FOR EXTRACTION AND MANUFACTURE.

AT PRESENT, ENERGY RECOVERY APPEARS TO BE FEASIBLE ONLY IN MORE DENSLY POPULATED AREAS WHERE ECONOMIES OF SCALE CAN BE ACHIEVED 25% OF THE NATION'S WASTE I- CONCENTRATED IN 243 CITIES HAVING POPULATIONS IN EXCESS OF 55,000. THE MINIMUM THAT IS NECESSARY TO MAKE RESOURCE RECOVERY ECONOMICALLY ATTRACTIVE GIVEN CURRENT DUMP FEES AND FUEL WASTE. USING 1971 DATA ON THESE CITIES, THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HAS ESTIMATED THAT THE EQUIVELANT OF 473,000 BARRELS OF OIL PER DAY COULD BE SAVED THROUGH ENERGY RECOVERY (393,000 BARRELS PER DAY) AND MATERIALS RECYCLING (80,000 BARRELS PER DAY). OF COURSE, THIS ESTIMATE ASSUMES THAT PRACTICAL TECHNOLOGIES CAN BE EMPLOYED TO UTILIZE THE RECOVERED AND RECYCLED PRODUCTS. THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HAS MADE A GREAT D-AL OF PROGRESS TOWARD MAKING SUCH TECHNOLOGY A REALITY.

WASTE SOURCE PRODUCTION REFERS TO REDUCING WASTE BY BETTER RESOURCE MANAGEMENT AND DESIGN OF PROCESSING AND DISTRIBUTION SYSTEMS PRIO- TO A SUBSTANCE BECOMING WASTE. WE SEE THIS APPROACH AS THE KEY OPPORTUNITY FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION IN THE WASTE MANAGEMENT AREA. IT SEEMS ALMOST AUTOMATIC THAT ENERGY WILL BE SAVED IN DIRECT PROPORTION TO THE AMOUNT OF MATERIALS WITHDRAWN FROM THE WASTE STREAM THE LESS MATERIALS PRODUCED THE LESS WASTE. THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY ESTIMATED THAT IF PER CAPITA PACKAGING CONSUMPTION IN 1972 WERE REDUCED TO 1958 LEVELS, OVER HALF A QUADRILLION BTU'S COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.

PACKAGING IS NOT THE ONLY CANDIDATE AREA. THROUGH THE EFFORTS OF THE ADMINISTRATION, THE THREE MAJOR AUTO MANUFACTURERS HAVE COMMITTED THEMSELVES TO A 40% IMPROVEMENT IN NEW CAR FUEL ECONOMY OVER A FOUR YEAR PERIOD IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THESE EFFICIENCIES AUTO MANUFACTURERS WILL HAVE TO UTILIZE TWO TECHNIQUES THAT WILL RESULT IN LESS SOLID WASTE -- NAMELY A LONGER LIVED PRODUCT (RADIAL TIRES) AND LESS MATERIAL (LIGHTER CARS).

SOURCE REDUCTION HAS ONE POTENTIAL UNDESIRABLE EFFECT, ECONOMIC DISLOCATION. RECOGNIZING THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS ISSUE, WE THINK THERE IS MERIT IN THE PROVISION OF H.R. 5487 WHICH WOULD REQUIRE A STUDY ON "THE FEASIBILITY, DESIRABILITY, AND ENERGY CONSERVATION POTENTIAL OF MANDATORY WASTE GENERATION REDUCTION REQUIREMENTS."

I SHOULD LIKE TO NOTE THAT SOURCE REDUCTION HAS ONE OTHER SIGNIFICANT THOUGH INTANGIBLE ASPECT: IT IS A FUNDAMENTAL THEME FOR DEVELOPING NATIONAL CONSERVATION ETHIC. GIVEN OUR EXPERIENCE WITH VOLUNTARY CONSERVATION PROGRAMS, THE NEED FOR SUCH A NATIONAL ETHIC IS OBVIOUS.

THE OTHER TWO APPROACHES -- ENERGY RECOVERY AND MATERIALS RECYCLING -- ARE COLLECTIVELY REFERRED TO AS WASTE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT. ENERGY RECOVERY INVOLVES EXTRACTING THE HEAT CONTENT OF WASTE FOR USE AS EITHER SOLID OR PYROLYZED FUEL. MATERIALS RECYCLING USUALLY REFERS TO SALVAGING GLASS, PAPER, AND METALS FOR REPROCESSING AND REUSE.

AN IDEAL SYSTEM WOULD RECOVER BOTH MATERIALS AND ENERGY. WHILE IN PRINCIPLE THIS CAN BE DONE, IN PRACTICE SYSTEMS THAT HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED RECOVER EITHER FERROUS AND NON-FERROUS METALS, GLASS, AND PAPER: OR ENERGY AND SOMETIMES FERROUS METALS. THE MATERIALS RECYCLING FACILITY BEING BUILT IN NEW ORLEANS RECOVERS METALS AND GLASS, HANDPICKS PAPER TO SOME EXTENT, AND LEAVES THE ORGANIC COMBUSTIBLE FRACTION FOR LANDFILL. A LARGE NUMBER OF DEEP PILE BURNING WATER WALL INCINERATORS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY BURN RAW REFUSE TO GENERATE STEAM. THE VALUE OF THE METALS AND GLASS IN THE REFUSE THAT HAS B-EN EXPOSED TO THE HIGH COMBUSTION TEMPERATURE IS DEGRADED. IT SHOULD BE NOTED, HOWEVER THAT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HAS FUNDED A DEMONSTRATION GRANT FOR AN INCINERATOR RESIDUE RECOVERY PLANT IN LOWELL, MASSACHUSETTS THAT WILL RECLAIM MATERIALS AFTER THE ENERGY CONTENT OF THE WASTE HAS BEEN UTILIZED.

ONE VERY PROMISIG DEVELOPMENT IN THIS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY DEMONSTRATION WITH THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS AND THE UNION ELECTRIC COMPANY. IN ST. LOUIS THE REFUSE IS SHREDDED, AIR CLASSIFIED, AND FERROUS METALS ARE RECOVERED. THE LIGHT COMBUSTIBLE FRACTION IS THEN USED AS A SUPPLEMENTARY FUEL CONTRIBUTING UP TO 20% OF THE HEAT CONTENT IN A 140 MEGAWATT PULVERIZED COAL TIRED BOILER.

STATCMENT OF SANT R W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

750415

PART 006 OF 9

SANT R W ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION AND ENVIRONMENT

FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATON WASHINGTON, DC

107773

HEARINGS

TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

BASED ON UNION ELECTRIC'S FAVORABLE EXPERIENCES WITH THE PROJECT, THEY HAVE INITIATED A 70 MILLION DOLLAR PROJECT TO PROCESS PER DAY 8000 TONS OF REFUSE FROM THE ST. LOUIS AREA. CONSIDERATION IS BEING GIVEN TO RECOVERY OF GLASS AND ALUMINUM IN ADDITION TO FERROUS METALS IF FEASIBLE. THIS PROJECT REQUIRES THAT UNION ELECTRIC ADAPT SIX ADDITIONAL BOILERS TO BURN REFUSE. WE EXPECT THAT THIS IS INDICATIVE OF THE WAY WASTE RESOURCES WILL BE MANAGED IN THE FUTURE. WITH PLANTS RECOVERING BOTH MATERIALS AND ENERGY.

BEFORE WE SEE WIDESPREAD ADOPTION OF MATERIALS RECYCLING SEVERAL OBSTACLES WILL HAVE TO BE OVERCOME. THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IS THE LACK OF MARKETS FOR PRODUCTS DERIVED FROM WASTE. PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THAT SALVAGED MATERIALS ARE IMPURE AND ONLY HAVE A LIMITED MARKET: BUT EVEN MARKETING HEAT ENERGY RECOVERED AS STEAM REQUIRES CAREFUL PLANNING AND MANAGEMENT. TWO OF THE NEWER INCINERATORS (THE CHICAGO NORTHWEST AND THE HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA PLANTS) CURRENTLY CONDENSE THE STEAM THEY GENERATE FROM REFUSE AND HENCE UNPRODUCTIVELY DISSIPATE THE ENERGY THEY RECOVER FOR LACK OF A MARKET. MARKETS FREQUENTLY EXIST ONLY FOR PARTICULAR RECOVERED PRODUCTS -- MATERIALS OR ENERGY AT SPECIFIC SITES. THIS IS ONE REASON THAT RECOVERY PLANTS HAVE BEEN BUILT TO RECOVER EITHER MATERIALS OR ENERGY.

BASED ON PAST EXPERIENCE, IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT MARKETS FOR RECYCLED MATERIALS BE DEVELOPED IN CONJUNCTION WITH CONSTRUCTION OF MATERIALS RECYCLING PLANTS. FAILURE TO DO SO COULD LEAD TO ALL OVERABUNDANCE OF LOW=GRADE RECOVERED MATERIALS, WHICH COULD SATURATE THE MARKET. SOME MATERIALS RECYCLING PLANTS THAT WERE DEVELOPED IN PREVIOUS DECADES FAILED BECAUSE THEY WERE UNABLE TO FIND ADEQUATE MARKETS FOR THEIR PRODUCTS. THE COMPOST PLANTS THAT WERE OPERATED IN THE 1950'S AND 1960'S WERE CLASSIC EXAMPLES. OF THE 18 PLANTS COMPOSTING MUNICIPAL WASTE BUILT SINCE 1951, ONLY ONE WAS OPERATING FULL TIME IN 1973 AND FOUR OTHERS WERE ON A DEMAND ONLY BASIS. WHILE THERE WERE MANY REASONS FOR THE CLOSINGS, THE PRIMARY FACTORS WERE NON-COMPETITIVE OPERATING COSTS AND LACK OF SUBSTANTIAL MARKETS.

PRODUCTIVELY UTILIZING THE LATENT ENERGY IN THE ORGANIC FRACTION IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS. IT IS ESTIMATED THAT IN A PLANT RECOVERING BOTH ENERGY AND MATERIALS, FROM 1/2 TO 2/3 OF THE REVENUE DERIVED FROM SALE OF RECOVERED PRODUCTS AND 80 TO 90 PERCENT OF THE ENERGY SAVED IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE FUEL FRACTION.

CURRENTLY ONLY TWO DEMONSTRATED TECHNOLOGIES FOR RECOVERING ENERGY FROM SOLID WASTE ARE COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE IN THE UNITED STATES FIRST BURNING THE REFUSE IN A WATER WALL INCINERATOR TO GENERATE LOW TEMPERATURE STEAM WHICH CAN BE USED FOR SPACE CONDITIONING OR INDUSTRIAL PROCESS STEAM: AND SECOND USING SHREDDED AND AIR-CLASSIFIED REFUSE AS A SUPPLEMENTERY FUEL IN A BOILER FIRED BY PULVERIZED COAL. BECAUSE OF TRADITIONALLY HIGHER FUEL COSTS AND LACK OF AVAILABLE LAND FOR DISPOSAL OF WASTES, RECOVERY OF ENERGY FROM REFUSE IS AN ESTABLISHED PRACTICE IN EUROPE. THE EUROPEAN APPROACH WHICH UTILIZES SEPARATE COMBUSTION CHAMBERS FOR THE REFUSE AND FOSSIL FUEL DEMONSTRATES THE FEASIBILITY OF USING REFUSE AS FUEL ALTHOUGH THE TECHNOLOGY IS LESS SOPHISTICATED THAN THE COMBINED FIRING OF REFUSE AND COAL BEING DEMONSTRATED IN THIS COUNTRY. IN 1973 THERE WERE 16 POWER PLANTS IN WEST GERMANY OPERATING THAT USED REFUSE AS A FUEL IN SOME PART OF THE STEAM CYCLE. FRANKFURT DERIVES 7% OF ITS ELECTRICAL ENERGY FROM SUCH SYSTEMS.

OTHER EVEN MORE ADVANCFD TECHNOLOGIES SUCH AS GAS AND OIL PYROLYSIS ARE BEING DEVELOPED BUT THE AMOUNT OF OPERATING DATA WILL BE MINIMAL AND AS A RESULT THEY PROBABLY WILL NOT BE IMPLEMENTED TO ANY DEGREE WITHIN THE FISCAL YEAR 1979 TIME-FRAME THAT H.R. 5487 CONSIDERS.

GIVEN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE ART USING REFUSE AS A SUPPLEMENTARY FUEL IN A UTILITY OR LARGE INDUSTRIAL BOILER IS THE PREFERRED TECHNOLOGY. THERE ARE TWO REASONS. FIRST, MARKETING STEAM DERIVED FROM REFUSE HAS NOT BEEN EASY IN MANY CASES. SECOND, WHEN REFUSE IS PREPARED FOR A UTILITY FIRED BOILER, IT FACILITATES RECOVERY OF MATERIALS.

HOWEVER, WITH SOME EXCEPTIONS, UTILITIES HAVE NOT BEEN ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT USING REFUSE-DERIVED FUELS EVEN THOUGH REFUSE MAY BE PRICE-COMPETITIVE WITH OTHER FUELS AND LOW IN SULFUR CONTENT. THE REASONS ARE NUMEROUS. I'LL MENTION JUST A COUPLE. UTILITY BOILERS ARE BUILT TO LAST 10 YEARS: AND WITH LITTLE INFORMATION ON THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF BURNING REFUSE, UTILITIES ARE RELUCTANT TO RISK SHORTENING THE LIFETIME OF THEIR EQUIPMENT. SOME UTILITIES ARE CONCERNED THAT AFTER THEY MAKE NECE-SARY MODIFICATIONS TO BURN SOLID WASTE, AIR QUALITY REGULATIONS WILL BE MODIFIED SO AS TO PROHIBIT ITS USE AS A FUEL.

IN RECOGNITION OF THE MANY COMPLEX INSTITUTIONAL BARRIERS PREVENTING UTILIZATION OF REFUSE AS AN ENERGY SOURCE, AND IN CONSULTATION WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY, WE ARE CONTRACTING FOR A STUDY TO IDENTIFY AND EXAMINE INSTITUTIONAL BARRIERS WITH THE PRIMARY EMPHASIS BEING ON UTILITIES.

STATCMENT OF SANT R W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

750415

PART 007 OF 9

SANT R W ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION AND ENVIRONMENT

FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATON WASHINGTON, DC

107774

HEARINGS

TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

IN ADDITION, THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION IS PARTICIPATING WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY AND THE TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY IN A STUDY EXAMINING THE FEASIBILITY OF ADAPTING ONE OR MORE OF THE TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY'S STEAM PLANTS TO ACCEPT PREPARED REFUSE AS A SUPPLEMENTARY FUEL. IF THE TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY, THE LARGEST STEAM UTILITY IN THE COUNTRY WERE TO ACOPT THIS PRACTICE IT WOULD ENCOURAGE OTHER LARGE UTILITIES TO FOLLOW.

I WOULD LIKE TO ACQUAINT YOU WITH THREE OTHER AREAS THAT RELATE DIRECTLY TO RESOURCE RECOVERY INDUSTRIAL ENERGY CONSERVATION UTILIZATION OF AGRICULTURAL WASTES AND DISPOSAL OF WASTE OIL.

OUR INDUSTRIAL ENERGY CONSERVATION PROGRAM HAS BEEN WORKING WITH THE ALUMINUM, CEMENT, CHEMICAL, PAPER, PETROLEUM REFINING, STEEL, GLASS, COPPER, MEAT PACKING AND BAKING INDUSTRIES TO DEVELOP ENERGY CONSERVATION GOALS INCLUDING RECYCLING. THE GOALS ARE DEFINED IN TERMS OF ENERGY USE PER UNIT OF OUTPUT. ONE WAY IN WHICH INDUSTRY MAY ELECT TO MEET THESE GOALS IS BY UTILIZING RECYCLED MATERIALS.

AGRICULTURAL RESIDUES CONTAIN SIGNIFICANTLY MORE LATENT ENERGY THAN URBAN WASTES. MOST AGRICULTURAL WASTE IS QUITE DISPERSED AND MUCH OF IT IS UNAVAILABLE FROM ENERGY ANDECONOMIC STANDPOINTS. HOWEVER, GIVEN THE LARGE VOLUME OF AGRICULTURAL WASTES UTILIZING EVEN A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF IT AS AN ENERGY SOURCEWOULD BE SIGNIFICANT. THEREFORE, THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION IS PARTICIPATING WITH THE NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION AND THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE'S AGRICULTURAL RESEARCH SERVICE IN A SERIES OF STUDIES EXAMINING THE TECHNICAL AND ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY OF UTILIZING SELECTED AGRICULTURAL WASTES AS ENERGY SOURCES.

EACH DAY 70,000 BARRELS OF WASTE LUBRICATING OIL ARE GENERATED. PRESENTLY ONLY 8 PERCENT OF THIS OIL IS BEING RE-REFINED THE MOST VALUABLE USE FOR THIS OIL. THE REMAINDER IS USED AS A LOWER GRADE PRODUCT OR DISPOSED OF IN AN ENVIRONMENTALLY UNSATISFACTORY WAY. FORTY-THREE PERCENT OF THE WASTE OIL IS USED AS FUEL. 18% IS USED AS A ROAD OIL OR IN ASPHALT, AND 31% IS DUMPED. BECAUSE THERE ARE NO TECHNOLOGICAL BARRIERS TO RECYCLING WASTE OIL AND CONSIDERING THE ECONOMIES OF VARIOUS COLLECTION AND RECOVERY SYSTEMS THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION BELIEVES THAT IMPROVED USE OF THE WASTE OIL IS POSSIBLE AND REGARDS IMPROVING USE OF THIS RESOURCE AS AN IMPORTANT OPPORTUNITY FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION.

I WILL NOW TURN TO THE SPECIFIC LEGISLATION THE COMMITTEE IS CONSIDERING H.R. 406 WOULD REQUIRE A MANDATORY DEPOSIT ON ALL SOFT DRINK AND BEER CONTAINERS.

BASED ON DATA GENERATED IN A RECENT ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY STUDY IT HAS BEEN ESTIMATED THAT APPROXIMATELY 2 QUADRILLION BTU PER YEAR WOULD BE SAVED IF ONE WAY BEVERAGE CONTAINERS WERE ELIMINATED.

ESTIMATES OF THE ECONOMIC DISLOCATIONS ASSOCIATED WITH ENACTMENT OF THISLEGISLATION ARE LESS WELL UNDERSTOOD. A 1972 STUDY SPONSORED BY THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY ESTIMATED APPROXIMATELY 82,000 JOBS WOULD BE LOST IF ONE WAY CONTAINERS WERE SUDDENLY ELIMINATED. THE NUMBER OF JOBS LOST WOULD BE APPRECIABLY LESS IF THE LEGISLATION BEFORE YOU CONTAINED PROVISIONS FOR A PHASE IN PERIOD. SOMEWHAT BALANCING THE LOST JOBS WOULD BE THE NUMBER OF JOBS CREATED TO HANDLE THE RETURNED BOTTLES. IT HAS BEEN ESTIMATED THAT THE NUMBER OF JOBS CREATED WOULD BE ABOUT EQUAL TO THE JOBS LOST, BUT THAT THE JOBS CREATED WOULD REQUIRE LESS SKILL AND HENCE LOWER PAYING.

IN OUR OPINION THE WORK THAT HAS BEEN DONE TO DATE EVALUATING THE IMPACT OF CONTAINERS LEGISLATION NEEDS TO BE EXTENDED. THIS EXTENSION SHOULD INCLUDE THE IMPACT OF NEW TECHNOLOGY IN CONTAINER PRODUCTION, THE POSSIBILITY THAT NOT ALL ONE WAY CONTAINERS WILL BE ELIMINATED ECONOMIC IMPACT ON RESOURCE RECOVERY, AND THE ECONOMIC REQUIREMENTS FOR INDUSTRIAL CHANGEOVER.

THEREFORE, THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION HAS CONTRACTED WITH RESEARCH TRIANGLE INSTITUTE TO ANALYZE A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS RELATING TO THIS LEGISLATION. BECAUSE OF THE DIVERSITY OF THE OPINION ON THE ISSUE, ONE SPECIFIC TASK OF THE STUDY WILL BE TO CIRCULATE A DRAFT VERSION OF THE FINAL REPORT TO INTERESTED PARTIES (INDUSTRY, ENVIRONMENTAL AND CONSUMER GROUPS) FOR CRITICAL REVIEW. ALL COMMENTS WILL BE BOUND WITH THE REPORT. THUS THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION HOPES TO HAVE IN ONE DOCUMENT ALL SHADES OF OPINION ON WHICH TO BASE ITS RECOMMENDATIONS.IT IS ANTICIPATED THAT THE REPORT WILL BE COMPLETED AND REVIEWED BY MID-AUGUST 1975. AT THAT TIME THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION WILL BE IN A MORE KNOWLEDGABLE POSITIONTO COMMENT ON LEGISLATION DIRECTED AT THE NON-RETURNABLE CONTAINER. THEREFORE WE PREFER NOT TO INDICATE SUPPORT OR NON-SUPPORT OF H.R. 406 AT THIS TIME.

STATCMENT OF SANT R W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

750415

PART 008 OF 9

SANT R W ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION AND ENVIRONMENT

FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATON WASHINGTON, DC

107775

HEARINGS

TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

WITH RESPECT TO H.R. 5487, THE "WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975". WE WISH TO INDICATE THE FOLLOWING CONCERNS: (1) WOULD AN AUTHORIZATION OF 440 MILLION DOLLARS IN GRANTS AND LOANS MATERIALLY INCREASE THE ENERGY CONSERVED? REALIZATION OF THE TOTAL ENERGY POTENTIAL WOULD REQUIRE PRIVATE AND PUBLIC INVESTMENT OF 50 TO 100 BILLION DOLLARS (2) WHAT MARKETING CONSIDERATIONS SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO CCOUNT TO ASSURE THAT STUDIES AND GRANTS HAVE REALISTICALLY ADDRESSED THE PRODUCTIVE USE OF THE ENERGY AND MATERIALS RECOVERED? (3) WHAT IF ANY INSTITUTIONAL, REGULATORY, AND ECONOMIC BARRIERS TO THE REUSE OF RECYCLED MATERIALS NEED TO BE ELIMINATED? (4) WHAT METHODS, IF ANY, SHOULD BE EMPLOYED TO PROTECT MARKETS FOR THE LOW GRADE MATERIALS WHICH RESULT FROM WASTE ENERGY RECOVERY? AND (5) HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL ATTENTION MUST BE GIVEN IN THE DEVELOPMENT AND PROVING OF THE TECHNOLOGY FOR WASTE ENERGY RECOVERY? PROGRAMS WHICH INCLUDE ENERGY COST BENEFIT ANALYSES ARE A NECESSITY FOR LONG RANGE DECISION MAKING BY THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND GOVERNMENTS.

IMPLICIT IN THESE CONCERNS IS LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHETHER IT IS NECESSARY TO INVEST FEDERAL MONEY IN ENERGY RECOVERY FACILITIES IN LIGHT OF THE INCREASING COSTS OF ENERGY AND WASTE DISPOSAL. A NUMBER OF FACILITIES HAVE BEEN OR ARE BEING PLANNED TO BE BUILT USING STRICTLY PRIVATE FINANCING.

IN TOTAL, BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMIC, TECHNICAL AND INSTITUTIONAL RISKS AT THIS TIME ASSOCIATED WITH RESOURCE RECOVERY IT IS NOT CLEAR WHAT KIND AND HOW MUCH IF ANY, FEDERAL SUBSIDIES ILL BE REQUIRED TO INCREASE SIGNIFICANTLY THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY SAVED OR RECOVERED FROM SOLID WASTE STREAM. WHILE WE RECOGNIZE THAT H.R. 5487 PRIMARILY CONCERNED WITH WASTE MANAGEMENT, WE FEEL THAT TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENTS AND MARKETING STRATEGIES HAVE IMPORTANT IMPLICATIONS BOR BOTH SOLID WASTE AND ENERGY.

WE STRONGLY SUPPORT ALL STUDIES CALLED FOR THE BILL WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE STUDY CALLED FOR BY SECTION 276.6 DEALING WITH RECOVERY AND USE OF METHANE FROM RESIDENTIAL WASTE VENT STACKS WHICH WE FEEL IS UNNECESSARY. WE BELIEVE THAT AN ADDITIONAL STUDY WHICH WOULD FOCUS ON THE IMPACT OF GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES SHOULD BE PERFORMED BEFORE SUBSTANCIAL SUMS OF FEDERAL MONEY ARE EXPENDED ON ENERGY RECOVERY FROM SOLID WASTE.

FINALLY, WE RECOGNIZE THAT THE MAIN EMPHASIS OF THE BILL IS DEVELOPING AN ENVIRONMENTALLY ACCEPTABLE WAYS OF DISPOSING OF THE NATION'S SOLID WASTE. ON THIS SUBJECT WE DEFER TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY.

I WILL BE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS.

MR. SANTINI. THEN, IN SYNOPSIS FORM IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR TESTIMONY CORRECTLY, IT IS ESSENTIALLY YOUR POSITION THAT YOU FEEL NO LEGISLATIVE OR APPROPRIATION ACTION SHOULD BE TAKEN AT THIS TIME OTHER THAN TO FUND STUDIES OR GRANTS WHICH WOULD AUTHORIZE FURTHER INVESTIGATION OF THE ISSUES AFFECTED BY H.R. 5487, IS THAT CORRECT?

MR. SANT. THAT IS CORRECT.

MR. SANTINI. IS YOUR OBJECTION ESSENTIALLY PREDICATED UPON FINANCIAL RESERVATIONS?

IT IS ESSENTIALLY PREDICATED ON A CONCERN THAT WE ARE NOT SURE WHERE THAT MONEY COULD BEST BE EXPENDED?

MR. SANT. I AM SAYING THAT YOU HAVE A CYCLE, STUDY FIRST AND THEN DEMONSTRATION GRANTS AND THEN ULTIMATELY SUBSIDIES OR SOME OTHER FORM OF INCENTIVE. WE HAVE REALLY NOT DONE SUFFICIENT STUDY TO JUSTIFY THE DEMONSTRATION GRANTS OF THE MAGNITUDE RECOMMENDED IN H.R. 5487 AND TO SOLVE THE WHOLE PROBLEM WE ARE REALLY TALKING ABOUT $5 TO $10 BILLION.

MR. SANTINI. HOW LONG WOULD YOU PROJECT IT WOULD TAKE TO CONDUCT THE KIND OF STUDIES YOU ARE CONTEMPLATING?

MR. SANT. I WOULD SAY AT THE OUTSIDE A YEAR. THAT IS THE KIND OF RANGE I AM THINKING OF.

MR. SANTINI. ALL NECESSARY STUDY COULD BE COMPLETED WITHIN A YEAR. IN YOUR JUDGEMENT?

MR. SANT. I DON'T KNOW. THE FINDINGS OF THE STUDIES MIGHT GENERATE OTHER QUESTIONS THAT WE HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF AT THIS TIME.

STATCMENT OF SANT R W

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

750415

PART 009 OF 9

SANT R W ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR ENERGY CONSERVATION AND ENVIRONMENT

FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATON WASHINGTON, DC

107776

HEARINGS

TRANSCRIPT

HOUSE

MR. SANTINI. WHAT PRESENTLY IS YOUR AGENCY DOING IN TERMS OF STUDY OR EXAMINATION OF THIS PROBLEM?

MR. SANT. WE HAVE SEVERAL THINGS GOING. TO NAME A COUPLE FIRST, AS I MENTIONED IN TERMS OF THE SO-CALLED BOTTLE BILL WE ARE TRYING TO GET A COMPLETE ANALYSIS OF THAT FROM EVERY STANDPOINT. WE HAVE BEEN IN THE FRANKLY UNCOMFORTABLE POSITION OF LIVING THE OBJECTIVES OF THE VARIOUS BILLS BUT NOT FINDING THAT THE MEASURES REALLY SOLVE THE PROBLEM AS WE SEE IT. WE HAVE THEREFORE UNDERSTAKEN A STUDY TO TRY TO GET SOME MORE ANSWERS SO WE CAN TAKE A MORE DEFINITIVE POSITION.

IN ADDITION, WE ARE JOINTLY WORKING WITH TVA AND EPA ON A PROGRAM TO TRY TO USE SOLID WASTE AS A SUPPLEMENTAL BOILER FUEL IN A TVA FACILITY.

MR. SANTINI. SO, IN SUMMARY, THE TOTAL EFFORT OF YOUR AGENCY THAT IS BEING EXPENDED AT THIS TIME TO EITHER STUDY OR IMPLEMENT ACTION PROGRAMS TO CONTEND WITH THE PROBLEM OF SOLID WASTE IS CONFINED TO THE CONTRIBUTION YOU ARE NOW MAKING TO TVA?

MR. SANT. AND THE BOTTLE BILL STUDY WHICH I MENTIONED, AS WELL AS A STUDY EXAMINING THE INSTITUTIONAL BARRIERS PREVENTING URBAN REFUSE FROM BEING USED AS AN ENERGY SOURCE AND A STUDY EXAMINING THE FEASIBILITY OF PRODUCTIVELY UTILIZING THE LATENT ENERGY IN AGRICULTURAL WASTES.

MR. SANTINI. HOW MUCH MONEY WOULD YOU ESTIMATE IS PRESENTLY BEING EXPENDED BY YOUR AGENCY TO EITHER STUDY THIS PROBLEM OR IMPLEMENT SOLUTIONS TO IT?

MR. SANT. ON THE ORDER OF $400,000.

MR. SANTINI. $400,000. DO YOU FEEL THAT THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY IS ADEQUATE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?

MR. SANT. AS I INDICATED, I AM ONLY ADDRESSING THE ENERGY CONSERVATION ASPECT. I THINK THE PROBLEM IS MUCH GREATER THAN THAT. I THINK THE EPA HAS THE RIGHTFUL LEAD TO STUDY THE WHOLE PROBLEM IN TERMS OF ALL THE OTHER ASPECTS. WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE ENERGY PART OF THE PROBLEM. I THINK IT IS AN APPROPRIATE THING FOR US TO TAKE THE NARROWER VIEWS. THEREFORE, I DO FEEL THAT THIS IS THE APPROPRIATE AMOUNT.

MR. SANTINI. DID YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR THE TESTIMONY OF MR. PAUL?

MR. SANT. YES, I DID. I HEARD PARTS OF IT ANYWAY.

MR. SANTINI. DO YOU THINK. MR. SANT. THAT MR. PAUL'S AGENCY OR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT COULD ASSIST PRIVATE INDUSTRY IN DEVELOPMENT OF MARKETS FOR RECYCLED PRODUCTS?

MR. SANT. YES, I THINK SO. I WAS INTRIGUED BY THE QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED AS TO WHETHER OR NOT, IF WE BANNED DUMP SITES IT WOULD FORCE THE MARKET. I THINK IT IS GOING TO TAKE SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

CERTAINLY ONE OF THE MAJOR BARRIERS WE SEE IS THAT THERE IS NOT A MARKET FOR THE STEAM OR POWER OR THE MATERIALS THAT ARE BEING RECYCLED. WE NEED TO HAVE SOME ASSURANCE OF THOSE MARKETS. ON THE OTHER HAND, THE MARKETS THEMSELVES ARE SAVING THAT WE NEED SOME ASSURANCE OF THE SUPPLY OF MATERIALS. SO IT IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS WE NEED TO GET OVER THAT FIRST HURDLE.

MR. SANTINI. CAN WE LEGIMATELY. MR. SANT. ISOLATE THE PROBLEM AS ONE CERTAINLY OF IMMEDIATE CONCERN TO YOUR AGENCY, ENERGY WITHOUT EXAMINING THE ENTIRE PROBLEM? YOU GET YOURSELF INTO THE CHICKEN AND EGG PROPOSITION THAT YOU SUGGEST THERE.

ESTIMATES HAVE BEEN O-FERED THAT, IF SUCCESSFUL, A SOLID WASTE PROGRAM WOULD BE ABLE TO SAVE APPROXIMATELY 5 PERCENT OF THE ENERGY PRESENTLY BEING CONSUMED IN THIS COUNTRY. IF THAT PROJECTION IS A REALISTIC AND ACCURATE ONE, IT WOULD SEEM TO SUGGEST, AT LEAST TO THIS OBSERVER THAT IT SHOULD COMMAND A HIGHER PRIORITY IN THE EXAMINATION OF YOUR AGENCY.

MR. SANT. WELL, AS I TESTIFIED, WE ESTIMATE A LOWER FIGURE. I THINK THE 5-PERCENT FIGURE ASSUMES THAT ALL SOLID WASTES CAN BE CONVERTED TO ENERGY OF SOME KIND. OUR ESTIMATE IS THAT ONLY 25 PERCENT IS ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE AND THAT ASSUMES PRESENT COSTS OF ENERGY. THIS IS EQUIVALENT TO SOLID WASTE HAVING A MAXIMUM POTENTIAL OF REDUCING ENERGY DEMAND BY MORE LIKE 1 1/2 PERCENT, OR A LITTLE LESS THAN 500,000 BA-RELS PER DAY. GIVEN OUR CURRENT SITUATION AND THE DIFFICULT BARRIERS TO IMPLEMENT ENERGY RECOVERY FROM SOLID WASTE WE PUT STRONGER EMPHASIS ON OTHER CONSERVATION MEASURES THAT COULD BE REALIZED IN A SHORTER TERM.

MR. SANTINI. I AM AFRAID THE BUZZER BECKONS. I DON'T KNOW TF WE WILL HAVE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS TO BE OFFERED, AND IN VIEW OF THE DEMAND FOR A VOTE AND THE FACT YOU HAVE COMPLETED YOUR TESTIMONY, THE COMMITTEE AT THIS POINT WILL TAKE A RECESS UNTIL -- WELL, WE DO WANT TO TAKE BOTH THE TESTIMONY FROM THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES AND THE WITNESS FROM FRANKLIN, OHIO, AND TO THAT END WE WILL BE IN RECESS UNTIL 10 MINUTES TO 4.

MR. SANTINI. OUR NEXT WITNESS IS CONGRESSMAN KINDNESS, AND YOU HAVE WITH YOU MR. EICHOLZ.

MR. KINDNESS. YES. THANK YOU. MR. CHAIRMAN.

MR. SANTINI. WE ARE VERY GLAD TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

STATEMENTS OF KINDNESS TN AND EICHHOLZ BF

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

750415

PART 001 OF 6

KINDNESS T N REPRCSENTAIVE

EICHHOLZ B F CITY MANAGER

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WASHINGTON, DC

FRANKLIN, OH

107777

TRANSCRIPT

HEARING

HOUSE

MR. KINDNESS. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN, WE APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO APPEAR BEFORE THE COMMITTEE.

MY APPEARANCE IS LARGELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF INTRODUCING MR. BERNARD EICHHOLZ, WHO WILL HAVE SUBSTANTIVE TESTIMONY TO PRESENT TO THE COMMITTEE.

THE TOPIC OF SOLID WASTE DISPOSAL IS CERTAINLY NOT ON THE TIP OF EVERYONE'S TONGUE -- FOR THE TASTE IS BAD;AND WE WOULD RATHER NOT THINK ABOUT IT. BUT THE PROSPECTS OF DWINDLING SUPPLIES OF NATURAL RESOURCES, COMBINED WITH OUR CUREENT ENERGY SHORTAGES AND OUR CONTINUING DESIRE FOR A MORE LIVABLE ENVIRONMENT HAVE FOCUSED ATTENTION ON THE GROWING NEED FOR A PRACTICAL POLICY AND METHODOLOGY OF RECYCLING THE SOLID WASTE OUR SOCIETY PRODUCES DAILY AND HOURLY.

AS YOUR ARE WELL AWARE, RESOURCE RECOVERY SYSTEMS HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED IN A NUMBER OF METROPOLITAN REGIONS WHICH, IN VARYING DEGREES, RECOVER RECYCLABE MATERIALS AND PUT THE REST FOR ENERGY USES. I ONLY HOPE THAT THESE HEARING WILL CONTINUE TO PROVIDE A FORUM OF DISCUSSION SO THAT WE MAY ALL EXPLORE THE WAYS IN WHICH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN UPDATE AND IMPROVE REGULATIONS AND PROGRAMS SO AS TO ENCOURAGE THE RATIONAL DEVELPMENT OF MORE RECOVERY PLANTS OF THIS NATURE.

STATEMENTS OF KINDNESS TN AND EICHHOLZ BF

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

750415

PART 002 OF 6

KINDNESS T N REPRCSENTAIVE

EICHHOLZ B F CITY MANAGER

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WASHINGTON, DC

FRANKLIN, OH

107778

TRANSCRIPT

HEARING

HOUSE

MR. BERNARD EICHHOLZ, WHOM I WOULD LIKE TO INTRODUCE TO THE COMMITTEE, HAS BBEN THE CITY MANAGER OF FRANKLIN, OHIO, FOR 6 YEARS AND WAS FORMERLY THE MAYOR OF COVINGTON, KY.

I FEEL THAT HIS COMMENTS CAN BE HELPFUL BECAUSE IN FRANKLIN, OHIO, WE HAVE THE NATION'S FIRST COMPREHENSIVE SYSTEM FOR PROCESSING THE ENITRE SOLID WASTE STREAM. THE PLANT HAS BEEN OPERATING FOR ABOUT 4 YEARS. IT IS ALSO UNIQUE IN THAT VARIOUS INDUSTRIES HAVE COMMITTED THEMSELVES TO PURCHASE THE EXTRACTED MATERIALS.

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, IT IS VITAL THAT THIS COMMITTEE AND ITS STAFF, CONTINUE TO HEAR FROM THOSE WHO, LIKE MR. EICHHOLZ, HAVE A WORKING KNOWLEDGE OF SOLID WASTE DISPOSAL AND RESOURCE RECYCLING. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THE EXPERIENCE OF THOSE PLANNER, ENGINEERS, AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WHO HAVE ACTUALLY DESIGNED AND OPERATED RECYCLING PLANTS.

I WOULD LIKE, MR. CHAIRMAN, IF IT IS APPROPRIATE, AT THIS POINT TO INTRODUCE MR. EICHHOLZ.

MR SANTINI. WE WILL BE GLAD TO HEAR FROM YOU AT THIS TIME, MR. EICHHOLZ.

STATEMENT OF BERNARD F. EICHHOLZ

MR. EICHHOLZ. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE

COMMITTEE, AND CONGRESSMAN KINDNESS.

I HAD PREPARED A BIG STATEMENT HERE, BUT AFTER SITTING HERE FOR

BOUT 45 MINUTES, I DECIDED THE BEST THING TO DO WAS TO THROW IT

IN THE WASTE CAN BECAUSE I HEARD QUESTIONS RAISED HERE THAT WE

HAVE ANSWERS FOR AND I AM AMAZED THIS ALL SEEMS TO BE A MYSTERY.

WE HAVE IN FRANKLIN, WITH THE GOVERNMENTAL MONEY, PROVEN THESE POINTS THAT HAVE BBEN RAISED HERE THIS DAY AS IF THEY ARE A BIG MYSTERY. THE QUESTION WAS ALSO RAISED AS TO PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, AND I CAN ANSWER THAT BECUSE THE COMPANY WHO HAS DEVELOPED OURS HAS GONE ON THE HOOK FOR $57 MILLION TO BUILD A PLANT IN HEMPSTEAD WITH THEIR OWN MONEY, DO THEY HAVE NO QUESTION ABOUT THIS PROVEN BUSINESS.

SO I THINK THAT THE COMMITTEE SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF PUBLIC FUNDS THAT HAD BEEN USED TO FIND A SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM AND HAVE FOR 4 YEARS OPERATED THE LONGEST OPERATION, SUCCESSFUL OPERATION IN THE COUNTRY, WHICH EXTRACTS METAL, FERROUS AND NONFERROUS, EXTRACTS PAPER FIBER, EXTRACTS GLASS, COLOR SORTS THE GLASS, AND NOW IS GOING INTO THERMAL ENERGY WITH THE RESIDUE. WE ALSO PULP THIS ALL UNDER WATER, AND USE TREATED SEWER EFFLUENT, SO WE DON'T USE DOMESTIC WATER, AND SO WE HAVE NO PROBLEMS FROM EXPLOSIONS OR FIRE, AND WE MAKE A UNIFORM TREATMENT. WE DON'T HAVE THE PROBLEMS OF HAVING 90 DEGREE BENDS BECAUSE WE HAVE A WET PULP.

SO ALL OF THIS I SAY HAS BEEN PROVEN. IT HAS BEEN PROVED WITH THE COMBINATION OF GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES AND PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, BECAUSE IN FRANKLIN WE HAVE THE U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY INVOLVED, THE CITY OF FRANKLIN, AND MIAMI CONSERVANCY DISTRICT INVOLVED, WHO HAVE CONTROL OF THE RIVERS THAT FLOW THROUGH OUR COMMUNITY.

MR. SANTINI. WHERE WAS YOUR PROGRAM INITIATED, AND HOW DID IT GET OFF THE GROUND?

MR. EICHHOLZ. HOW DID IT GET OFF THE GROUND?

IN 1967 ONE OF THE CITY COUNCILMEN LEARNED THAT THE CITY WAS RUNNING OUT OF LANDFILL SPACE. HE HAPPENED TO BE AN ENGINEER INVOLVED WIH THE BLACK COSSAN CO., WHO HAD BEEN MANUFACTURERS OF PAPERMAKING MACHINES FOR OVER 100 YEARS, SO HE CONCEIVED THE IDEA, WHY DON'T WE JUST PULP ALL OF THE GARBAGE UP TO A PULP AND THEN BURY THE PULP, AND WE WOULD HAVE IT COMPACTED AND WON'T GET INTO THE METHANE GAS AND SETTLING AND ALL OF THIS?

STATEMENTS OF KINDNESS TN AND EICHHOLZ BF

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

750415

PART 003 OF 6

KINDNESS T N REPRCSENTAIVE

EICHHOLZ B F CITY MANAGER

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WASHINGTON, DC

FRANKLIN, OH

107779

TRANSCRIPT

HEARING

HOUSE

HE WENT TO THE EPA. DURING THE DISCUSSION THEY SAID: "LOOK, IF YOU CAN DO ALL OF THIS WITH IT, AND YOU ARE IN THE PAPER BUSINESS, AND APPROXIMATELY 50 PERCENT OF MUNICIPAL WASTE IS PAPER, WHY DON'T YOU EXTRACT THE PAPER FROM THIS IN THE SAME PROCESS?"

AS MOST THINGS HAPPEN, SOMEBODY LOOKING FROM THE BACK OVER SHOULDERS SAID: "IF YOU CAN DO THAT YOU CAN CERTAINLY EXTRACT GLASS, AND IF YOU CAN DO ALL THIS AND HAVE A RESIDUE LEFT, IT HAS A (ILLEGIBLE) VALUE."

SO THE EPA FUNDED AND STARTED OPERATION IN 1974 AND OPERATED CONTINUOUSLY AND NEVER TURNED A POUND OF GARBAGE AWAY, AND HAD VISITORS FORM 22 NATIONS AND 40 STATES IN THE UNION.

THERE IS A FRANKLIN PLANT OPERATING IN SUBURBAND TOKYO TODAY. THIS SHOULD CONVINCE THE COMMITTEE OF TWO THINGS, EITHER THAT JAPAN HAS MORE PRESSING PROBLEM, OR ELSE MOVE FASTER THAN WE DO.

MR SANTINI. YOU GOT STARTED WITH AN EPA GRANT IN 1974?

MR. EICHHOLZ. NO. WE STARTED WITH AN EPA GRANT IN 1969, BUT PUT IT INTO OPERATION IN 1974.

MR. SANTINI. HOW MUCH MONEY DID IT TAKE TO GET OFF THE GROUND?

MR. EICHHOLZ. EPA MONEY WAS $1,900,000.

MR. SANTINI. WHAT IS THE BASIS OF THE MONEYS THAT ARE NOW PROVIDED FOR OPERATING EXPENSE OF THE FACILITY?

MR EICHHOLZ. OPERATING EXPENSE?

MR. SANTINI. WHERE DO THEY COME FROM?

MR. EICHHOLZ. PRIVATE ENTERPRISE

MR. SANTINI. IT IS ALL NOW PRIVATELY SUPPORTED?

MR. EICHHOLZ. RIGHT. WHO COLLECTS ALSO THE TONNAGE FEE, IF SOMEONE BRINGS ANY TONNAGE OF GARBAGE THERE, HE CHARGES HIM FOR DUMPING, AND THAT IS HIS.

MR SANTINI. DO YOU HAVE FIGURES ON ENERGY SAVINGS?

MR. EICHHOLZ. YES, WE CAN GIVE YOU SOME FIGURES ON THAT. NOW YOUHAVE TO REMEMBER THIS ALSO, THAT FRANKLIN IS A SMALL COMMUNITY OF 10,000 PEOPLE. THE LITTLE PLANT WE ARE TALKING IS (ILLEGIBLE) TONS A DAY.

MR. SANTINI. ARE YOU ABLE TO MOVE INTO ANEXISTING FACILITY THE PAPER PLANTS YOU REFERRED TO AND ADAPT THAT?

MR. EICHHOLZ. NO. THIS IS ALL NEW. WE MERELY TOOK CONVENTIONAL MACHINERY AND BY HOOKING THEM TOGETHER MADE THIS PROCESS. SO WE DON'T HAVE ANY NEW MACHINERY. WE HAVE ALL CONVENTIONAL MACHINERY PUT TOGETHER TO DO CERTAIN JOBS, SO NONE OF THISIS A BIG SECRET OR TREMENDOUS THING LIKE PUTTION A MAN ON THE MOON.

THIS IS JUST GOOD COMMONSENSE, AND THESE ARE THINGS INDUSTRY HAS BEEN DOING AND NEVER REALIZING WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

MR. SANTINI. THEY, YOU BY YOUR TESTIMONY, YOU WOULD DISAGREE WITH THE CONCLUSION OF MR. SANT, THAT WE NEED ANOTHER YEAR OF STUDY INSOFAR AS IMPLEMENTING ANY PROGRAM OF GOVERNMENTAL ASSISTANCE IS CONCERNED?

MR. EICHHOLZ. YES, I WOULD SAY IF YOU WANT TO ASK A QUESTION AND IF IT WERE MY COUNTRY, AND I WERE THE DICTATOR AND WANTED TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM, YOU KNOW HOW I WOULD SOLVE IT.

STATEMENTS OF KINDNESS TN AND EICHHOLZ BF

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

750415

PART 004 OF 6

KINDNESS T N REPRCSENTAIVE

EICHHOLZ B F CITY MANAGER

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WASHINGTON, DC

FRANKLIN, OH

107780

TRANSCRIPT

HEARING

HOUSE

I WOULD JUST ESTABLISH A REVOLVING LOAN FUND AND SAY TO COMMUNITIES AND PRIVATE INDUSTRY THAT ANYBODY WHO COMES IN HERE AND CONVINCES EPA THAT HERE IS A WORKABLE PROJECT THAT WILL RECLAIM THESE ENERGY AND VITAL RESOURCES AND DISPOSE OF THE WASTE INOFFENSIVELY, WE WILL LOAD YOU THIS MONEY.

YOU HEARD THE GENTLEMAN FROM WISCONSIN, AND THIS IS TYPICAL IN THE 50 STATES OF THE UNION, THEY ARE ALL BOUND BY SOME PROHIBITION AGAINST BORROWING MONEY. IF YOU GO TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO BORROW, YOU HAVE DIFFICULTY BECAUSE YOU CAN BORROW MONEY TO BUILD A WATERPLANT, OR TO BUILD SEWAGE PLANTS, BECAUSE THEY ALL HAVE TRACK RECORDS, BUT SOLID WASTE DOES NOT HAVE A TRACT RECORD.

I HAVE A FRIEND IN CINCINNATI WHO HAS BEEN AN ENGINEER IN SEWAGE WHO IS SOME 70 ODD YEARS OLD, BUT WHEN HE STUDIES ENGINEERING THERE WAS ONE UNIVERSITY IN THE UNITED STATES GIVING A COURSE IN SEWAGE TREATMENT, SO YOU SEE HOW FAR WE HAVE COME, AND IN SOLID WASTE WE ONLY IN THE LAST 10 YEARS LOOKED INTO THE PROBLEMS.

MR. SANTINI. YOU MENTIONED YOU HAD FIGURES ON ENERGY SAVINGS.

MR. EICHHOLZ. YES. WE ANTICIPATED ENERGY SAVINGS OF 31.5 PERCENT.

MR. SANTINI. THAT IS VERY IMPRESSIVE. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE SOLID WASTE THAT YOUR FACILITY PROCESSES CANNOT BE UTILIZED?

MR. EICHHOLZ. WHAT PERCENT CANNOT BE UTILIZED?

MR. SANTINI. YES

MR. EICHHOLZ. LET'S SEE WHAT WE RETURN HERE. 15 PERCENT, BUT WE HAVE PROVEN NOW CONVERTING THIS TO THERMAL ENERBY. WHEN THIS PLANT WAS FORMED WE PLANNED ON TAKING THIS AND BURNING IT IN WHAT WE CALL THE FLUID BED INCINERATOR WHICH IS INCINERATION WITH NO KLINKERS. NOW WE ARE GOIND TO CONVERT THE FLUID BED INCINERATORS TO DISPOSAL OF INDUSTRIAL LIQUID RESIDUALS, PROVE IT BY PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, AND THESE ARE PROBLEMS THAT ARE GOING TO HAUNT YOU ALSO.

YOU TALK ABOUT SOLID WASTE BECAUSE IF WE GO LOOKING FOR IT NO WE CAN FIND IT IN HOLLOWS AND RIVER BANKS AND WHEREVER SOMBODY DUMPS IT, BUT IN MY AREA ALONE THERE ARE 14,000 GALLONS A DAY OF INDUSTRIAL LIQUID RESIDUALS, NONAQUEOUS WASTE, ACID, CUTTING MACHINE OILS, PRIVY BOOTH RESIDUES, THINGS YOU CAN'T LANDFILL OR RUN THROUGH A SEWAGE PLANT, SO BASICALLY OVER THE COUNTRY, OTHER THAN BIG INDUSTRIES DEVELOPING ONSITE DISPOSALS, MOST OF THESE ARE ILLEGALLY DISPOSED OF.

WE ARE GOIND TO TAKE THAT INDUSTRIAL LIQUID RESIDUE AND EXTRACT WHATEVER WE CAN IN OILS AND OTHER THINGS, AND TAKE THE RESIDUE AND BURN IT. IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHAT YOU DEVELOP HERE IN SOLID WASTE, YOU END UP IN SOMETHING THAT IS DESTROYED BECAUSE I CAN RECLAIM THIS (ILLEGIBLE)OF PAPER BUT CAN ONLY BEND IT SO MANY TIMES AND ITS LIFE IS GONE AND I HAVE TO DISPOSE OF IT, BUT THEN IT BECOMES ENERGY.

MR. SANTINI. DID FRANKLIN, OHIO, HAVE ANY QNIQUE FACILITIES, PERSONNEL, OR OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES THAT MADE IT MORE ADAPTABLE TO INSTITUTING A PROGRAM OF THIS KIND THAN ANY OTHER COMPARATIVELY SMALLER COMMUNITY THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY?

MR. EICHHOLZ. YES: BECAUSE THEY HAD A COUNCILMAN WHO HAD AN IDEA.

MR. SANTINI. AN IMAGINATIVE COUNCILMAN?

MR EICHHOLZ. WHO HAD AN IDEA AND HE WAS AN ENGINEER, AND HE PUT IT TOGETHER, AND AS ALL THINGS DEVELOP, I THINK MANY THINGS, LIKE ON THE AUTOMOBILE HENRY FORD DIDN'T THINK ABOUT IT, BUT THIS IS NORMAL, WHEN YOU ONCE OPEN THE DOOR, OTHER MINDS AND THOUGHTS GET INTO IT. IT IS ALL A RELATIVELY SIMPLE PROCESS: WE OPERATED WITHOUT INTERRUPTION SINCE 1974.

STATEMENTS OF KINDNESS TN AND EICHHOLZ BF

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

750415

PART 005 OF 6

KINDNESS T N REPRCSENTAIVE

EICHHOLZ B F CITY MANAGER

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WASHINGTON, DC

FRANKLIN, OH

107781

TRANSCRIPT

HEARING

HOUSE

MR. SANTINI. IN YOUR JUDGMENT, BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THE PLANT IN FRANKLIN, ANY COMMUNITY OF SOME COMPARABLE SIZE COULD INSTITUTE SUCH A SOLID WASTE SYSTEM?

MR. EICHHOLZ. RIGHT, THE REASON THEY DO NOT DO IT IS BECAUSE OF THE HURDLE OF FINANCING.

MR. SANTINI. INITIALLY?

MR. EICHHOLZ. YES: I DON'T SEE THE BIG BUGABOO. I THINK WITH SOME KIND OF REVOLVING LOAD FUND, IT COULD BE OVERCOME. YOU WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT THIS DOES NOT BIND THE STATE OR CITY UNDER ITS CONSTITUTION, WHICH MEANS THAT YOU MIGHT BE WAIVING YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS TO EVER GO BACK AND RECLAIM IT, BUT I THINK IT IS LIKE A FIRE INSURANCE POLICY, THE DAY YOU SETTLE THE CLAIM IS THE DAY YOU BUY THE POLICY, SO YOU LOOK IT OVER AND SEE IF IT WILL WORK, AND IF IT HAS BEEN PROVEN AND, IF IT IS NOT, THEN IT IS A DEMONSTRATION FURTHER.

MR. SANTINI. YOU INDICATED IN YOUR STATEMENT THAT ALL THAT REMAINS WILL BURN NONOFFENSIVELY AND DOES THIS BURNING IN ANY WAY POLLUTE THE AIR?

MR. EICHHOLZ. NO: WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT POLLUTION, THAT IS PROBABLY THE WRONG WORD, BUT WE ARE BELOW ALL OF THE STANDARDS THAT EPA REQUIRES AS FAR AS OUR STACKS. IF YOU LOOK AT OUR STACK, ALL YOU SEE IS A WHITE FUME THAT IS VAPOR. THERE ARE ALL OF THE WASHERS IN IT.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER A FLUID BED INCINERATOR IS A VESSEL IN OUR CASE 25 FEET IN DIAMETER AND 30 FEET HIGH. YOU TAKE THE BOTTOM 4 FEET AND FILL IT WITH SAND. THEN YOU HEAT THE SAND UP TO WHATEVER TEMPERATURE YOU WANT. THEN YOU TURN AND USE THE BLOWER ON IT UNDERNEATH SO THE HOT SAND IS LIKE A VOLCANO IN THERE. WHAT YOU WANT TO BURN YOU BLOW IN THE SIDE OF IT AND MINUTE PARTICLES OF WHAT YOU WANT TO BURN, WHICH IS IN PULP, MEET MINUTE PARTICLES OF HOT SAND, AND THERE IS INSTANT INCINERATION AND NO KLINKERS. SO YOU GET TOTAL COMBUSTION.

DO YOU FOLLOW ME?

MR. SANTINI. YES: YOU INDICATED THAT YOUR FACILITY, IN YOUR STATEMENT,YOUR FACILITY PROCESSES 150 TONS PER DAY OF SOLID WASTE AT A COST COMPARABLE TO LANDFILLING. WHAT IS THE COST PER TON?

MR EICHHOLZ. WE ARE CHARGING $7.50 A TON.

I MIGHT MENTION THAT IN THE HEMPSTEAD FACILITY, EVEN THOUGH THERE IS $57 MILLION INVOLVED HERE, THE ESTIMATED COST TO DISPOSING OF A TON OF GARBAGE IN HEMPSTEAD, N.Y., IS GOING TO BE(ILLEGIBLE). ALSO DADE COUNTY, FLA., NOW IS CONSIDERING EVALUATING BIDS, ONE OF WHICH ISTHE COMPANY THAT BUILT THE FRANKLIN ONE, AND ANOTHER COMPANY WHO HAD A FACILITY IN ROME, ITALY, AND THE ESTIMATED COST PER TON IN DADE COUNTY WILL BE BETWEEN $2 AND $4 PER TON.

WE HAD A SURVEY MADE BY ENGINEERS AS TO WHAT IT WOULD COST US TO LANDFILL AND MEET STATE STANDARDS, AND WE FIGURED $5.86, AND IN HEMPSTEAD IT COST BETTER THAN $12 A TON TO LANDFILL. YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT LAND COSTS AND LABOR ARE HIGHER ON LONG ISLAND.

I AM SHOWING YOU CAN DO IT INOFFENSIVELY AND SAVE VITAL RESOURCES. IN HEMPSTEAD, THE BULK OF RECOVERY IS TO GENERATE ELECTRICITY WHICH WOULD BE SOLD TO LONG ISLAND ELECTRIC CO.

YOU ALSO EXTRACT METAL AND GLASS. SO YOU TRY TO MAKE IT ADAPTABLE. THERE ARE NO TWO COMMUNITIES IN THE UNITED STATES THAT HVE THE SAME PROBLEM AS FAR AS DISPOSAL. WHAT YOU CAN DO IN ONE YOU CAN'T DO IN ANOTHER BECAUSE OF THE MAKEUP OF THE INDUSTRY.

STATEMENTS OF KINDNESS TN AND EICHHOLZ BF

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

750415

PART 006 OF 6

KINDNESS T N REPRCSENTAIVE

EICHHOLZ B F CITY MANAGER

94TH CONGRESS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WASHINGTON, DC

FRANKLIN, OH

107782

TRANSCRIPT

HEARING

HOUSE

WE EVEN FIND THAT THE MAKEUP OF THE GARBAGE, WHILE IT IS LIKE A STREAM, IF YOU LOOK IN IT, IT IS CONSTANT, BUT YET IT IS ALWAYS CHANGING. SO EVEN COMMUNITIES VARY.

IN FRANKLIN, WE HAVE A LOWER PERCENTAGE OF PAPER THAN A NORMAL CITY BECAUSE WE ARE SMALL AND DON'T HAVE MANY OFFICES, AND OFFICES GENERATE A LOT OF PAPER, AS YOU KNOW.

MR. SANTINI. ESPECIALLY WASHINGTON, D.C.

MR. EICHHOLZ. YES AND HERE YOUR PAPER CONTENT WOULD BE HIGH. THIS IS WHAT YOU GET INTO, SOME COMMUNITIES USE MORE GLASS BOTTLES OR METAL. THIS IS TYPICAL OF NEIGHBORHOODS, AND THEY DON'T VARY A GREAT DEAL, BUT THERE ARE VARIATIONS. WE ALSO SELL PAPER FIBER TO A PAPER MILL. WE PIPE IT TO THEM. IN LONG ISLAND THERE ARE NO PAPER MILLS, SO IT IS NOT A VIABLE THING, BUT THERE ARE VIABLE THINGS TO CONVERT IT TO ENERGY.

THE QUESTION WAS RAISED BY, I THINK, MR. ROONEY. "WHY DOESN'T PRIVATE ENTERPRISE GET INTO IT?" PRIVATE ENTERPRISE HAS GOTTEN INTO IT. WE HAVE NOT ONLY THE CITY OF FRANKLIN'S MONEY IN IT, AND EPA, BUT THE COMPANY THAT BUILT IT.

BLACK CLAWSON CO., AND THE GLASS CONTAINER MANUFACTURERS' INSTITUTE HAVE PUT NEARLY $200,000INTO THIS, TO PROVE THE POINT THAT YOU CAN EXTRACT GLASS FROM GARBAGE AND IT DOES HAVE A MARKET. SO ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE NOT NEW, AND A GREAT MYSTERY, AND UNTRIED, BUT THEY ARE THERE TO BE IMPLEMENTED IF THE WAY IS MADE TO IMPLEMENT THEM AND CUT THE REDTAPE.

MR. SANTINI. SO, DO YOU HAVE ANY WAY OF KNOWING WHAT THE PROFIT MARGIN IS OF THE OPERATION IN FRANKLIN, OHIO, BY WAY OF ENCOURAGING PRIVATE ENTERPRISE TO GET INTO IT?

MR. EICHHOLZ. IN FRANKLIN'S CASE, THERE IS NO PROFIT MARGIN. THERE ARE A LOT OF REASONS.

FIRST OF ALL, IT IS A SMALL FACILITY, AND IT WAS A DEMONSTRATION. SO IF YOU WERE TO BUILD A NEW ONE, THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT WERE DONE IN THE FRANKLIN PLANT THAT WILL NOT BE DONE AT HEMPSTEAD, AND ARE NOT BEING DONE IN JAPAN, BUT THAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE DEMONSTRATION, YOU KNOW, YOU FIND OUT MAYBE YOU DON'T NEED, SAY A CARBURETOR, BUT IT HAS BEEN DONE TO THE POINT THAT THE BLACK CLAWSON CO. STUCK THEIR NECKS OUT TO THE TUNE OF $57 MILLION, SO YOU SAY, "WHY DOESN'T PRIVATE INDUSTRY GET INVOLVED', BUT THEY DO. EPA, THEY SEEM TO BE STAFFED WITH COMPETENT PEOPLE AND WE HAVE NOTHING BUT ADMIRATIO FOR THE WHOLE THING. BUT, THE POINT I AM TRYING TO BRING OUT IS THIS, THAT THIS HAS BEEN DONE, AND I AM NOT HERE TO SAY THIS IS THE ONLY SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM.

I AM SAYING, IT IS A PROVEN SOLUTION, VERY VERSATILE AND CAN BE ADAPTED TO MOST ANY COMMUNITY. I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WITH IDEAS, BUT PRIVATE INDUSTRY WILL COME UP WITH THOSE AND LET THEM SUBMIT THEIR PROPOSALS.

MR. SANTINI. DID YOU COME UP WITH PROBLEMS IN SECURING COOPERATION BETWEEN LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND LOCAL BUSINESS TO COOPERATE WITH EACH OTHER?

MR. EICHHOLZ. NO, BECAUSE GENERALLY, YOU FIND THAT LOCAL BUSINESS IS JUST THAT -- IT IS IN THE FIELD TO MAKE MONEY, RIGHT? SO YOU CONVINCE THEM THERE IS A VIABLE PROJECT HERE AND YOU FIND IT IS. SO IN ANOTHER DAY THEN, THEY ARE KNOCKING AT YOUR DOOR AND YOU ARE NOT KNOCKING AT THEIRS, BECAUSE AS LONG AS WE KEEP THE PROFIT MOTIVE AVAILABLE, WE WILL HAVE A FREE ECONOMY AND FREE SOCIETY.

WHEN WE CEASE TO HAVE THAT, WE ARE IN DEEP TROUBLE.

MR. SANTINI. WELL, I CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN VERY IMPRESSED, MR. EICHHOLZ, WITH THE SUCCESS YOU REALIZED IN FRANKLIN, OHIO, AND YOUR COMMAND OF THE SUBJECT MATTER AND OBVIOUS ENTHUSIASM AND COMMITMENT TO THE SUCCESSFUL PROGRAM, THERE.

I CERTAINLY EXPRESS MY APPRECIATION TO YOU, AND YOUR CONGRESSMAN KINDNESS, FOR BRINGING NOT ONLY THIS DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN, BUT THIS IMPRESSIVE PROGRAM TO THE ATTENTION OF THIS COMMITTEE, BECAUSEI THINK IT CAN HELP SERVE AS A GUIDANCE AND MODEL FOR SIMILAR PROGRAMS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

MR. EICHHOLZ. OF COURSE, THE BIG QUESTION IS, "WHEN ARE YOU COMING TO SEE IT?"

MR. SANTINI. THE CHAIRMAN WAS JUST MAKING INQUIRY OF WISCONSIN AND I WILL NOTE FOR THE RECORD AN INVITATION TO VISIT FRANKLING AND CONFER WITH THE CHAIRMAN, BUT I, FOR ONE, WOULD LIKE VERY MUCH TO SEE FIRST HAND YOUR SUCCESS IN FRANKLIN.

MR. EICHHOLZ. OBVIOUSLY, IN SOLID WASTE DISPOSAL, YOU HAVE A GOOD SELECTION OF FOOD AVAILABLE AT ALL TIMES.

MR. SANTINI. JUST AS LONG AS THERE ARE NO WRY REMARKS ABOUT THE "ADDITION OF SEVERAL POLITICIANS IN TOWN INCREASING THE WASTE PROBLEM."

MR. EICHHOLZ. YES, THE POLLUTION.

MR. KINDNESS. MR. CHAIRMAN, IF I MIGHT, I WOULD CERTAINLY JOIN IN THAT INVITATION AND WILL DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO MAKE IT CONVENIENT FOR THE COMMITTEE TO VISIT FRANKLIN AND SEE THIS FACILITY.

MR. SANTINI. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CONGRESSMAN KINDNESS, AND THANK YOU, MR. EICHHOLZ. NEXT, FINALLY, I WOULD ASK MR. BAY HASS, THE COMMISSIONER OF MOBILE COUNTY, ALA., REPRESENTING THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. HAAS.

STATEMENT BY HASS B

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

PYTOLYTIC COMPARISON DEMONSTRATES INGHAM COUNTY'S FLEXIBILITY

MECKLENBERG COUNTY ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT SANITARY LANDFILL OPERATIONAL GUIDELINES AND PROCEDURES 740500

750415

PART 001 OF 48

HASS B COMMISSIONER, MOBIL COUNTY, AL

SHASKAN C, LEGISLATURE REPRESENTATIVE

SODE RL CHAIRMAN

GREGG MR PROGRAM COORDINATOR

REDKER DS INVENTOR

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES

INGHAM COUNTY BOARD OF PUBLIC WORKS NORTH CEDAR STREET, MASON, MI

INGHAM COUNTY BOARD OF PUBLIC WORKS

REDKER-YOUNG PROCESSES, INC.

ERNST AND ERNST LANSING, MI

MECKLENBERG COUNTY, NC ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT

107783

HEARING

TRANSCRIPT

REPORT STUDY

CORRESPONDENCE

HOUSE

MR. HAAS. MR. CHAIRMAN, I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY VERY MUCH TO APPEAR BEFORE YOU. I AM NOT ONLY A COUNTY COMMISSIONER, BUT I AM ALSO CHAIRMAN OF THE SOLID WASTE SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES ENVIRONMENT AND ENERGY STEERING COMMITTEE. WITH ME TODAY IS CAROL SHASKAN, LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE FOR NACO.

BECAUSE THE 3,000 COUNTIES IN THE UNITED STATES COVER SUCH LARGE GEOGRAPHIC AREAS AND REPRESENT MOST OF THE NATION'S POPULATION, COUNTIES HAVE A TREMENDOUS STAKE IN FEDERAL SOLID WASTE LEGISLATION WHICH VITALLY AFFECTS OUR RESIDENTS. THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES REPRESENTS OVER 1,300 COUNTY GOVERNMENTS WHICH, TOGETHER, COMPRISES 70 PERCENT OF THE UNITED STATES POPULATION.

MR. CHAIRMAN, WE WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN BY THANKING YOUR SUBCOMMITTEE FOR HOLDING HEARINGS ON THIS IMPORTANT ISSUE OF SOLID WASTE. AT A RECENT NACO LEGISLATIVE CONFERENCE, MORE THAN 700 COUNTY OFFICIALS FROM ALL PARTS OF THE COUNTRY MET IN WASHINGTON TO URGE THE CONGRESS AND ADMINISTRATION TO TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION ON A 10-POINT PROGRAM TO DEAL WITH THE CURRENT ECONOMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS.

STATEMENT BY HASS B

WASTE CONTROL ACT OF 1975

PYTOLYTIC COMPARISON DEMONSTRATES INGHAM COUNTY'S FLEXIBILITY

MECKLENBERG COUNTY ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT SANITARY LANDFILL OPERATIONAL GUIDELINES AND PROCEDURES 740500

750415

PART 002 OF 48

HASS B COMMISSIONER, MOBIL COUNTY, AL

SHASKAN C, LEGISLATURE REPRESENTATIVE

SODE RL CHAIRMAN

GREGG MR PROGRAM COORDINATOR

REDKER DS INVENTOR

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES

INGHAM COUNTY BOARD OF PUBLIC WORKS NORTH CEDAR STREET, MASON, MI

INGHAM COUNTY BOARD OF PUBLIC WORKS

REDKER-YOUNG PROCESSES, INC.

ERNST AND ERNST LANSING, MI

MECKLENBERG COUNTY, NC ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT

107784

HEARING

TRANSCRIPT

REPORT STUDY

CORRESPONDENCE

HOUSE

THE ENACTMENT OF COMPREHENSIVE SOLID WASTE LEGISLATION WITH STRONG EMPHASIS ON RESOURCE RECOVERY AND ENERGY CONSERVATION IS A VITAL COMPONENT OF THIS 10-POINT PROGRAM.

WE WILL DIRECT OUR REMARKS TODAY AT THE BILL, H.R. 5487, WHICH IS CURRENTLY BEFORE THEIS COMMITTEE. THIS BILL FAILS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE MEASURE TO INSURE RESOURCE RECOVERY AND SOURCE REDUCTION OF SOLID WASTE. THE BILL PLACES FAR TOO MANY DEMANDS ON STATES WITHOUT PROVIDING SUFFICIENT FEDERAL FUNDS. IT DOES NOT PROVIDE FOR ADEQUATE LOCAL GOVERNMENT INPUT INTO THE STATE PLAN.